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Bane of the WW Barbarian

Discussion in 'Classic' started by HegemonKhan, Aug 31, 2008. | Replies: 41 | Views: 6060

  1. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Bane of the WW Barbarian

    after making my first pvp'er, a barb speeder for bvs (or FC zons), for my next pvp build, I want to take on one of the best/dominant pvp builds, the ww barbarian (i love going right for the toughest opponents! glory is defeating the strongest, not defeating the weakest)

    first some rules and explanation in what i want:

    1. i want to take on the ww barbarian "at his own game" or "on his turf" meaning that the build will be melee to melee, face to face, toe to toe. nothing would be better than besting a ww barb in this manner.

    yes, i could make a build that fights from distance (as a way to counter a ww barb's melee prowess) but than i realize that the barb can also be very fast and can always get to and into melee with any build. the only real option, in this mind set is to kill the ww barb before he kills u with ww. the necro has his bone spirit and bone spear, which can't ber resisted making magical damage exploitive for pvp fights. either the necro gets the barb first or the barb gets to the necro and kills with ww.

    2. so instead, i wanted a build that can stand before the ww barb, as that will be the situation due to the barb's speed, and not die.

    i do NOT want to do a ww barb vs ww barb (bvb). this isn't what i'm after. bvb. ww barb vs ww barb. this is merely copying them and hoping u make yours better so u win.

    3. so i thought and thought, about what would be best char and build to do this......
    ----------------
    first, there's 5 ways to deal with negating ww.

    1. def rating (but all the ww barb needs is angelics and other sets/sources of ar. easily matching or besting the highest def possible or near that. so def rating isn't really an option since u can get high AR much more easily than def). also, the amazon has no means of enhancing def except by dex.

    *barbarian (170 str for high def gear, dex, shout, iron skin, concentrate), paladin (170 str for high def gear, dex, holy shield, defiance), sorceress (170 str for high def gear, dex, cold armors)

    2. shield block (this DOES work, nothing can change, effect, or reduce it as long as U don't run. the only problem is block lock. but you're getting ww'ed anyways so it shouldn't matter too much.

    *all 5 of 5 characters can use shields and shield block equally. paladin gets bonus of holy shield, but shield block max is 75%, so holy shield is only useful if shield block is lower than 75%.

    3. melee or walk/run dodge skills (ONLY availible to amazon). this is the same as a shield'd blocking. think of it as having a 2nd check for shield block.

    4. ES TK (energy shield + telekinesis) (only availible to sorceress)

    5. bone armor (and synergies) (only availible to the necromancer)
    -----------
    so i decided the best build for against a ww barb is the amazon.

    it will be hard to attack the barb because he's ww'ing, your dodge skill or hit recovery lock (whichever it is, hopefully not both), your shield block lock.

    also the barb can have near 95 resist all (elem=fire, cold/ice, lit, poison).

    also the barb can have high def (he can be a bvb barb)

    so, that leaves only magical and OW, or a really strong phys attack and lots of AR behind it.

    the only way to do magical with a zon is magic arrow skill, but this means no shield, leaving u with only the melee dodge skill to save u from ww.

    so that leaves the only two ways to damage the ww barb: OW and the valk (strong phys attack with AR)

    i'm not sure if u'll be able to swing much with the ww, block lock, hit recovery, or dodge anaimation.

    i'm also not sure if the valk can kill a barb. (i have payed attention to u guys saying the barb can easily kill the valk, but haven't heard if the valk can kill the barb)

    but these are really our only options unless we sacrifice our survival.

    i'm not sure if i should go as much +skill gear as i can, or less with more gear for survival/protection.

    also, if i should have OW on or ignore it, since i might not be able to get off attacks.

    but this is what i thought was best.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    my plan for "toe to toe" pvp build vs ww barb:

    character: amazon

    stats: enough str/dex for weapon/gear. rest into vit.

    skills: melee dodge skill. after that i have no idea for remaining ~80 sk pts.

    *since i'm using a shield, bow and spear skills are not going to be used/needed. also, no jav weapon and jav skills, since they do lit or poison, which can be easily resisted, especially by a barb. so that wouldn't work either. jab isn't an option since i can't use a spear with a shield; i'd have to use a jav which does no damage.

    *so, this leaves me with only the passive skill tree to place my remaining ~80 skill pts

    *this seems to say raise the valk skill (and its synergies). also, i probably have trouble getting off swings myself due to ww, block lock, hit recovery, dodge animation. also, the barb can have high def too meaning i'd need lots of AR to be able to hit anyways. this further points to using a valk and hoping that the valk can kill the barb for me.

    *as to what passive skills (for me and valk), i'm not sure. decoy would only help the valk's life (this might be useful, but only helps the valk's "endurance or punishment taking", i'm not sure if more life will help the valk against a ww barb though). critical strike would only help the valk's damage (which IS good, but it doesn't help me the amazon). penetrate would help both valk n me with chance to hit (this IS good). the walk/run dodge skill would be nice but is least useful compared to other skills/needs (only the valk would need it, as i would jsut be standing in place getting ww'ed). inner sight can further increase valk and my chance of hitting barb. so u can see, i'm not exactly sure what to do with the ~80 skill pts after maxing (putting 20 into) the melee standing dodge skill.

    weapon: gnasher for 50% OW, 20 or 30% CB (though CB probably won't be too useful). or use a more defensive weapon..like...i don't know. (there's teh sword that gives +20 or +30 to defense but that be useless with a zon)

    Gear: either more +skill gear (for stronger valk and higher dodge skills) or more survival/protection gear

    weakness: if a ww barb does elem damage (6 elem socketed weapon). and also, its ordinary high damage phys ww damage is, of course, a serious threat (hopefully, this build will be best for dealing with ww) for any char and build.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    any help, suggeestions, advice, criticism, expertise, knowledge would be greatly apreciated

    your thoughts on how to take on a ww barb "toe to toe" (with OUT using another ww barb in what would be a bvb)

    some sample questions for u guys to think about/adress:

    1. is the amazon the best? or another build?

    2. if amazon is best, am i right in my thoughts in how to make/use the amazon or no?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2008
  2. deichsela

    deichsela IncGamers Member

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    Bane of HKhan's Posts

    Smiters do well.
    I once saw an ice armor sorc take down WW barbs.
     
  3. EagleEntek

    EagleEntek IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    Im sorry to say but you are either completely insane or youve lost the plot :crazyeyes:

    You are attempting to tackle - the barbarian - a literal physical combat killing machine with the capacity to boost his health and defence 3 times higher than any other char, who can boost speed beyond most other chars, with natural resistances to most spells, a mastery of any weapon, with multiple close combat attacks most of which can pulverise hoards of enemy monsters, who could be potentialy loaded with crushing blow, AR, 300+ dmg weaponry - and you decided that the char best to deal with this MONSTER - is an amazon????

    Let me know when the funeral is i want to come and lay flowers at your grave :tombstone: :cry:

    I want to say its the equivalent of tackling a bulldozer with a lolly stick...
     
  4. IPlayLOM

    IPlayLOM IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    smiters will get destroyed against a decent barb my smiter has 1.3k smiter 10k defence (with fanat on higher with defiance) and barbs still rape him if they use angelics (for defence gear im using a 252 ghelm and an 800def -20 req ornate) although you might take less hits they are still going to destroy you. the only solution to fighting a whirlwind barbarian is another barbarian or a necro/sorc/hammerdin basically a spellcasting class.
     
  5. struikje

    struikje IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    ice-armor sorc, smiter, and cs-ama with barb bo/shout are youre best bets.
    Deffinetely don't use that gnasher-amazon. the dmg, life, def, ar, range will suck.
     
  6. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    woot, finally got some responses to this thread!!! :D TY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    first, eagle,

    that is the best summary i have ever read about/for the barbarian!!! you should copy it and paste it in the wiki for a barbarian intro!!!!

    and my amazon is, so far, seeming to do quite well. she's actually WINNING duels against ww barbs. though granted, i have no idea how good these "ww barbs" are that i have dueled so far.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    alright now my responses to your posts about taking on the barbarian:

    first, i AM trying this zon. she's now lvl 50 ish.

    i have dueled a few ww barbs. i have no idea how good they are.

    but, my amazon has actually done well against them.

    to be pessimistic: the barbs probably were noob builds that were badly made.

    but any hope is good for this insane idea of trying to take on the impossible unbeatable ww barb.

    my first duel was when i was like lvl 20 ish and i tried to duel a lvl 77 ww barb with red armor and a lance (i'm assuming he had godly gear and perfect build). he crushed me. the lance did huge damage so only a single or 2 hits destroyed me.

    this is my greatest fear. that its impossible for the zon to have enough life (from vit or gear) to withstand huge damage.

    if its not possible, than maybe it have been better to not put pts into vit for life and instead put pts into dex and use high def godly rares so that i can have some def rating along with shield block and dodge skill for 3 ways of resisting ww instead of jsut 2 (shield block and dodge skill).

    i am also thinking more and more that the best armor is rockfleece for its 10% damage reduction and -5 or so damage. if only the amazon had skills to lower damage like barbs (taunt? battle cry?) and necros (weaken curse)

    however, as i dueled more around the same lvl, and lvl'ed up to duel around same lvl. my amazon actually won most duels, except when the barb also did poison damage (i have no resists at all, so the poison really hurt. if i didn't pot i'd die from it). but between the few hits with OW (from yes, that gnasher and swordback, u all want me to get rid of) and my valk i win against the ww barbs! they nearly never hit me now and my life is around ~1000-1200 which now seems to be helping. its really cool!

    pure vitality so far. EVERY STAT PT has gone into vit. base str, dex, nrg.
    though i might need to put some pts ito str later once i decide my final gear.

    though i still fear that high damage two hand lance or mart ww barbs...1000 life can't possibly help against them. i rarely get hit now...but if the damage is high enough those few rare hits by the barbs is all they need to kill me. i am still very afraid of this likely problem.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    about smiters (and/or other chars/builds):

    i totally forgot about them, but its too late now. i am trying the zon build for good or worse.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    oops i forgot to adress this point a few of u have made in your posts:

    about def rating:

    a few of u mentioned using high def builds (barb, paladin-smiter, even a cold armor sorc) and also the problem of easy access to matching or greater AR via through angelics. i also saw this as well buried somewhere in my long opening post in this thread.

    this is why i decided that using high def was pointless as a way to resist ww, due to the ease of simply using angelics and other AR sources (skills, other sets, rares with AR)

    this is why i choose the zon. she has two ways to resist the ww that the barb can not do anything about. shield block and dodge skill.

    whereas with def rating, the barb CAN DO something about it...by simply wearing angelics. taking away this means of resistance (def rat) to ww leaving u ONLY with shield block as a measure against their ww.

    this is bad! one way of stoping ww is a lot worse than having two ways of stoping ww!!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i have also experienced one unseen problem which i now see/experience:

    i decided i only need the standing melee skill. what i didn't realize at the time, is that if i target the ww'ing barb my zon starts walking with the moving ww barb so that it is close enough to swing and hit. well when i walk i'm not using my 20 pts into the standing melee doddge skill. this takes away my 50% chance of resisting ww from my dodge skill. i can still work around this by hold shift and trying to swing and hit the barb when his ww is in my range. unfortunately, i don't have the skill pts to raise both the standing melee dodge skill and the walk/run dodge skill. since i feel i really need to raise other skills (especially, the to hit skills: penetrate-AR, inner sight-def rat reduction of enemy. i am really worriedparanoid about a high def barb and not being able to hit them as well! so i am maxing penetrate right now and than will probably do inner sight too).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i have personally confirmed that:

    OW will NOT activate unless u score a SUCCESSFUL TO HIT (NOT, merely contact like some other abilities like fire splash damage from raven claw) on the target. if u ONLY do phys damage and the monster is phys immune (and still phys immune- i.e. no breaking of immunity), OW will NOT work! (i don't do elem damage so i can't find out whether whoever said that this would work, if it does by my own testing)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    this is my zon roughly so far:

    acount: HK_5
    char name: HK_WindRider

    clvl 50 ish

    stats: ALL into vit so far

    skills: 20 into standing melee dodge skill (sorry, i dont think i'll ever get to know/memorize the correct names of the 3 dodge skills), 20 into valk, working on 20 into penetrate, probably will than put 20 into inner sight over critical strike for valk damage (my zon doesn't do high phys damage-gnasher, so critical strike is useles for my zon).

    gear: gnasher, swordback, twitch (i have rockfleece ready but dont have the str or a good 30/20 shield so the twitch is useful now still and to raise the sword back shield to 75 block), angelic rings and amulet for AR, tarn for +1 skill, goblin toe for CB (i am pretty sure CB is nerfed a bit in pvp so not as useful, but right now i'm still lvling and it helps against monsters), bloodfist? gloves (the 10% IAS, +40 life, 20-30% ? FHR unique gloves)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    sorry, everyone about the long long run-on posts. i've been too tired to write better for u guys/girls cuz of going to school now, studying, and doing school work/home work.

    so bare with it or don't read it (it=my posts).

    i've said i'm sorry but that's all your gonna get.

    i gave a very justifable and understandable reason why my posts are so sloppy and badly written now/recently.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  7. deichsela

    deichsela IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    Your zon's Gnasher has a range of 1.
    Your opponent's [edit]Martel De Fer[/edit] has a range of 3.
    Your opponent's lance has a range of 5.
    If the barb decides to not WW through you, you're toast.

    Twitch is better than Rockfleece.
    Twitch + Swordback (75% block total) = 25% dmg taken.
    Rockfleece (+10% physical res) + Swordback (55% block) = 40.5% dmg taken.

    Even if you have no defence, slvl20 Dodge + 75% block = 10.93% chance to be hit.

    Rather than Tarn, perhaps you should use a helm with three perfect rubies for +114 life.

    Crushing Blow melee:
    PvM reduces life 1/4.
    PvP reduces life 1/10.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  8. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    the rockfleece will be WITH a good (or better godly) 30/20 (75% block 20 block recovery) shield (NOT swordback), *WHEN I GET ONE*.

    right now the block recovery from shield (at ZERO-swordback) is very bad! immediate block lock due to no shield block recovery speed.

    i do have this unique shield with not 20% but 40% block recovery! but, even with twitch its at only 65% block chance. this may not be bad.. or it is. i'm not sure. if 65% isnt that much worse than 75% than this could possible be better than a 75% (30/20) shield. not sure...

    ...i thought BH has a range of 1, not 3. marts have range 3, not bh's. im pretty sure.....

    that range difference of lance (range 5) vs my gnasher (range 1) can be a serious problem if i face a real dueler who ww's me at range 5.

    i didn't use this reason (since it didn't occur to me, thanks for pointing out this weakness-problem i have) for also using a valk, but that valk choice helps with this issue as well.

    this also supports that it might have been better for me to raise the walk/run dodge skill instead of or along with the standing melee dodge skill. if i was to remake and use both standing melee dodge skill and walk/run dodge skill i'd have it replace either valk (no valk, jsut my zon and OW vs ww barb) or inner sight.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  9. Lorg

    Lorg IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    Bh range 1 ... But i think he meant marts...
     
  10. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    my bad, if he ment marts instead of bh's. as marts DO have range 3.

    oops i didn't see deich mention the 3 socket hat instead of tarn. i was aware/planning on this as an option. but thanks anyways:D

    i'm still under the impression that +skills can be really useful.

    the standing melee dodge skill at slvl 20 is only ~50% which HAD AND STILL HAS me worried! this is a main reason i feel +skills can be or are really important besides raising every other skill too.

    the problem is i need good protection gear too.

    so, its a balancing act between +skill gear and protection gear, which is the hard part of getting it jsut right (perfect).
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  11. deichsela

    deichsela IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    Yeah, sorry, I meant Martel De Fers. Post has been edited.
     
  12. deichsela

    deichsela IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    Pelta Lunata. Chance to Block:
    Pal: 50%
    Amazon, Barbarian: 45%
    Necromancer, Sorceress: 40%

    An amazon wearing Twitch (+25%), the block would be 70%.

    Pelta Lunata: 10 frames per block. Low defense. 70% block.
    Grim Shield: 11 frames per block. High defense. 75% block.
    The two shields are equal in blocking speed against WW (4fpa).
    Which is better? The 30/20, 200+ def Grim Shield.
    Why? The Grim Shield has more defense and a higher chance to block.

    You could wear Grim Shield without Twitch for 65% block and higher defense, but +10% blocking beats +200 defense in such high level duels. (1,200 def isn't much different from 1k def against 5k AR)
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  13. struikje

    struikje IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    twitch >> rockfleece
    3pruby helm >>>>>>> tarn.

    You do not need skills at all. the only things that'll get boosted are d/e/a, criticalstrike and the ar passive. All but the ar passive have massive diminishing returns, where often a +1 skill lvl won't even increase 1% at high lvls. at a high lvl, this build will be able to kill a very bad pvm barb, yet every pvp will demolish it in no time
     
  14. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    hmm, i hope this build has a better chance than all the "doom and gloom" you all are saying about taking on a ww barb. i simply can't except that its impossible to take on a ww barb.

    whether my zon build works or doesn't, what i'm interested in here is:

    what char/build DOES work?

    what are your ideas of char and build to be able to handle the ww barb?

    i decided to try an amazon and the build i do for it. to find out if it works or not.

    any of u are free and encouraged to post your own ideas on what would work best!!!

    if u think using a barb or paladin with high def and shield block + (whatever MELEE killing skill) is better than please share it here!!!

    or even about this cold armor sorc that was able to beat a ww barb, please share it!

    i wanna produce a way to finally end the hype and dominance of ww barb, especially at its own game of toe to toe melee duel, which was and is the purpose of this thread i started !
     
  15. deichsela

    deichsela IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    HKhan, The fact is, no other class has a melee skill comparable to WW. WW in Classic ignores weapon speed and always hits the fastest breakpoint for 6.25 attacks per second.

    The highest damage weapons in the game are supposed to be slower than the faster, lower damage weapons. That's called "balance". Since there is no balance, there is no melee character that can defeat "godly" (dupe-heavy) WW barbarians.

    I stopped dueling lvl 80-90 barbs years ago, because I get destroyed using legit gear. At lower levels (lld & mld) WW barbs can be manageable since they don't always wear the best gear, nor do they have all their skills maxed.
     
  16. nuitariwolf

    nuitariwolf IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    hi, well for you to by pass shield lock you need to use peirceing weapons IE: javalin or a dagger, you will not get shield lock, useing axe, mace, sword with a shield will couse shield lock, i mainly go to a amazon site for the dagger build, mind you it's for d2-lod but in classic skill/stat set up are good, for gear rockfleece, dusk deep helm, death set glove/sash, goblin toe boots, eye etlich amulet. but everyone else may know better dont know tho.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2008
  17. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    the problem with piercing mod items in classic is that they have low (phys) damage. the only way for me to damage a high def and/or near max elem resist ww (elite) barb is with OW. yes OW is exploitive, but so is a barb and ww.

    about the amazon vs barbarian:

    the only damage an amazon has from (non-bow skills) skills is phys (jab, impale, fend), lit (power strike, charged strike, lit strike, fury, lit bolt jav), and poison (poison jav, plague jav).

    i want to make a melee zon (to beat a barb toe to toe) so that means these skills are eleminated: fury, lit bolt jav, poison jav, and plague jav.

    elem damage is useless since a barb can have ~90 all resists (nat res skill, full iratha set, darkglow/vemon ward/hawkmail, resist from otehr gear). so that eliminates: power strike, charged strike, lit strike, fury, lit bolt jav, poison jav, and plague jav

    lit damage CAN work since a barb can only get 90% max lit resist. if lit damage is really high, 10% of it is still very good damage and CAN work well ... but the problem is u'd probably have raise synergies for high lit damage with a zon. this isn't a very good option.

    phys damage requires a spear which means no shield. also barbs can have high def which means u need high ar as well. so isn't an option.

    so the only options are lit damage or OW.

    if i did lit damage, at the very least i'd have to spend 20 sk pts into power strike (power strike would be best, i think...) though u wouln't need sk pts into the to hit skills. at least i'm pretty sure that the lit damage is from contact not an actual to hit success. this could be an option.

    the other option is using OW. OW gets more and more powerful as u get closer to lvl 99. OW is gear based so no sk pts are needed for it (as no sk pts give ow). all u need is to hit since OW will NOT activate unless u get a successful to hit.

    i'm getting tired...if u guys want more detail and explaination i will continue..but i think u get the idea hoepfully.
     
  18. fledgeling

    fledgeling IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    javazons are very dangerous but nearly all of them are simply hackers that use farcast
     
  19. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    well fortunately or un-fortunately i haven't figured out how to FC yet.....

    but with my speeder barb against fc (lit) zons because i could only get 90% lit resist, the high damage lit hurt me enough u have to worry about it.

    i jsut don't know how much sk pts u need to get lit damage high enough to be dangerous. (maxed damage skill + how much synergy sk pts are needed to make the damage dangerous?)

    it seems that the power strike would be best. the charged strike is only good when your against a larger target so that all the lit bolts hit. with a normal char a good many of the charged bolts won't hit so it shouldn't be too useful compared to powerstrike where the lit damage is part of the jav/spear and not a separate attack animation at the same time as the weapon strike.

    but trying a lit zon isn't an option right now. i already went with a OW zon (and appropriated the sk pts already accordingly).
     
  20. fredsta54

    fredsta54 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Bane of the WW Barbarian

    iron maiden and boneprisons/walls shoudl do the trick ;)



    Fred
     

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