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Attack speed analysis

Discussion in 'Monk' started by Chaboi, Mar 28, 2012. | Replies: 18 | Views: 3055

  1. Chaboi

    Chaboi IncGamers Member

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    Attack speed analysis

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455189# Read this, it's good. Below is an extrapolation of the data with the implications of attack speed on skill choice examined

    Even though deadly reach is faster, it still falls behind crippling wave for damage output.


    100 = base damage


    100 * 1.1 = 110 for deadly reach
    100 * 1.43 = 143 for crippling wave


    110 * 130 = 14,300 damage per minute or 238.33 (repeating of course) DPS
    143 * 111 = 15,873 damage per minute or 264.55 DPS


    Crippling wave is superior
  2. Coolhwip

    Coolhwip IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    Yup, tho I still intend to have DR in my build because of Foresight.

    DR w/Foresight and CW w/Breaking wave + Combination strike.
    Rotation: CW-CW-DR, then CW to your hearts content refreshing Foresight every 30 seconds. Weave in a Breath of heaven w/Blazing Wrath + Guiding light passive. Then just add SSS w/Sudden assault for some pretty nice single target dps.

    I'm still debating which mantra will be best, Conviction w/Overawe versus Retribution w/Transgression. I guess it'll come down to gear.
  3. Torr

    Torr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    I'm a HUGE fan of Breaking Wave... I just found Deadly Reach to be somewhat unwieldy compared to Crippling Wave in the beta. I have loads of fun with CW and never fear being surrounded with it. It seems like I kill very fast with it, even though it is only the beta. I'm leaning towards a combination of Breaking Wave and trying to sustain a Sweeping Wind/Blade Storm, along with Overawe and Sudden Assault like Coolhwip mentioned.

    I don't hate Deadly Reach at all, but I want Dashing Strike for mobility and that leaves me with one spot remaining. If I was going to use Combination Strike as a passive I might throw Foresight in for that excellent 18% damage add. Who knows, I may change my mind before release.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2012
  4. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    This is what I'm thinking too.

    DR with Foresight is an incredible ability, and I think it'll become a staple on most monk builds. It's the third strike so it extends 25 yards and gives you a simple, long universal damage buff. Same goes for Blazing Wrath. Easy, quick, long universal damage buff.

    Here's my question though. Way of the Hundred Fists does 140% compared to CW's 143%... but because WotHF strikes 7-10 times in the second strike, does each one roll for critical procs and other on-hit chances? I was thinking that WotHF runed with Blazing Fists could critical enough to maintain that massive 15% APS buff. Also, it could critical more in roughly the same time span as CW and end up dealing more damage.


  5. Chaboi

    Chaboi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    Here is an analysis of skill viability across all spirit generators

    Skill Base % Buffed %
    WOTHF 140 150
    FOT 110 110
    CW 110 143
    DR 110 130

    Utilizing Two (2) Generators (Assuming 1 will be DR for foresight and 100% uptime) Base Damage = 100

    CW + DR: 1.43 * 1.18 = 1.6874 * 100 * 111 = 18730.14
    DR Only: 1.1 * 1.18 = 1.298 * 100 * 130 = 16874
    FOT + DR: 1.1 * 1.18 = 1.298 * 100 * 147 = 19080
    WOTHF + DR: 1.5 * 1.18 = 1.77 * 100 * 130 = 23010


    Damage Scaling in Hell and Inferno (For Raw damage potential we are evaluating enemies with unlimited HP completely surrounding the player; this is to analyze how much damage the skills are capable of putting out) We take into consideration enemies hit in each of the three phases of the combo

    Skill & # of enemies hit in each phase 1 - 2 - 3
    WOTHF 1 - 1 - 2 = 1.5 uni-directional
    FOT 2 - 2 - 3 = 2.333 uni-directional
    CW 2 - 5 - 10 = 5.6 enemies hit from all sides
    DR 4 - 4 - 6 = 4.6 uni-directional

    Extrapolation utilizing the average # of enemies hit across all three phases and the single target damage output per minute for each skill (Assuming 100% foresight uptime)

    WOTHF 1.5 * 23010 = 34515
    FOT 2.5 * 19080 = 47700
    CW 5.6 * 18730 = 104888
    DR 4.6 * 16784 = 77206
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2012
  6. Coolhwip

    Coolhwip IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    Thanks for this. I shall name babies after you.
  7. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    Hmm, so let's see if I've got this straight.

    1- CW/FOT/DR kill enemies (takes away their health) slower than WotHF, but ultimately CW/FOT/DR kill groups quicker than WotHF, especially cwave.

    2- Versus single targets like Bosses and Champions, WoTHF would take them down faster.

    3- In general, it's between CW hitting multiple enemies and WotHF's 9-12 total strikes to maximize the chance for critical hit procs.

    4- Attack speed, how does it factor in? Foresight is for a solid 30 seconds, so it's infusion with your combo chain isn't every go-around.
    Let's say this is all based on the same number of attacks per second, 1.6, and also that the Monk's critical hit chance is 25%. If (3) regarding WotHF is true, then would Runing it with Blazing Fists (15% faster attack speed) yield a substantial difference?


    And here's a question about scoring a critical hit in WotHF's second 7 strikes. I'm assuming that the 140% damage gets divided up equally between the 7 strikes = 20% per strike. Does the game check for a critical hit once at the beginning or for each mini-strike? My hunch is the latter, so if critical hits add +50% damage, and we're scoring a critical hit with, let's say, the last 4 strikes of the 7, then:

    First hit
    140%

    Second hit
    20% + 20% + 20% + (20*1.5)% + (20*1.5)% + (20*1.5)% + (20*1.5)% =
    20% + 20% + 20% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% =
    180%

    Third hit
    140%

    Total: 460%

    VS the critical being applied across all strikes at the beginning, 140*1.5 = 210%
    Total: 490%
  8. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    So then, the question is: Do you use your spirit generator for single target DPS, or for AoE DPS? I'd go for the latter, as most monster packs are actually that; packs. On other hand, there isn't really a spirit spender specialized in dealing single target DPS (7SS has too long of a CD!). Questions, questions.
  9. Chaboi

    Chaboi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    I am on my iPad right now and typing out stuff like this is brutal, I'll have some more of this stuff up by the weekend. There's another 2 spirit generator combo that really mixes things up and I think you guys will like it.
  10. Torr

    Torr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    I don't know if you're necessarily forced to pick a single target spirit generator. I think I've settled with the thought that I'll use Crippling Wave as my primary attack. Against single enemies like bosses I'll hit a 7SS, follow that up with a Sweeping Wind, then try to use CW to keep up my SW and work my way up to max stack. If I can keep SW going, the cooldown on 7SS should give me enough time to use it as soon as it is available, and still allow me some spirit for other things (restarting SW if it drops, hitting a heal or Serenity, using Dashing Strike for hit-and-run mobility, etc.).

    I think if we can work out the right strategy to deal with single targets, we can use whichever spirit generator we want. I just dont see a generator that is noticably better than the rest that the you feel compelled to switch for bosses/groups.


  11. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    I mean, it's obvious that having 2 generators isn't really optimal (the same is true for every class); so then, is it more beneficial to go for a generator that is single target, and rely on spirit for aoe damage, or the other way around?
  12. Coolhwip

    Coolhwip IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    You are wrong.


  13. Torr

    Torr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    I don't see anything wrong with two generators, and if your build focuses on Combination Strike it's imperative. For me, I'm trying to not over-complicate things, and I feel that if too many generators are part of my build it might distract me from using other situational skills like 7SS, Dashing Strike, or perhaps healing/defense. Using multiple generators is a personal choice I think, based on how you like to play.

    In determining where to have your single target attacks relative to AoE attacks, I've decided on the CW/SW/7SS build which could all be considered AoE in a sense (even though 7SS can be a useful single target damage skill). My reasoning is that I think (with no real info to back up this hunch) that Blizzard wants us to utilize health globe drops over potions. If I'm right, then I expect that most bosses/unique sub-bosses are going to summon allies in, in order to give us opportunities to spawn health globes. If that is the case, a generator/spender combo like CW/SW will give me the ability to handle the adds without too much extra strategy involved. The only issue I see in my build for adds is that if I pop a 7SS when the adds arrive I won't be able to focus that damage on the boss as the adds will dilute it.

    Considering all of that, if you find you are really concerned about pure single target damage, I would personally focus it on your "big spirit spender" rather than on your "primary/secondary generator/spender" basic attack. Try to save that high cost 7SS, Pillar, etc for the boss/unique/champion leader would be my vote.


  14. ElementEight

    ElementEight IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    You have 94 posts here, at least half of which include unsupported one liners, which is annoying. Can you stop or take steps to improve that behavior?

    The question here is "can a generator do something as well or better than spirit spenders (taking the fact that they're free into account)?". If the answer is an overwhelming "yes!", then there's little point in having offensive spirit spenders. If the answer is "no", then you probably want to have as few generators as possible, use them as little as possible (enough to generate the necessary spirit for your spenders, no more).

    Does 8% per generator make up for the potential loss of damage or utility that bringing one-two-three less spenders might incur? We will see.

    Certainly, but I like min-maxing. In that spirit, do you believe that more than one generator may be somewhat of a waste?

    My main concern with the monk is that they do not seem to have a clear spender that is entirely focused on dealing single target DPS. The highest damage-per-spirit ability is 7SS, but it has a nasty cooldown. Everthing else does damage in an AoE (therefore, there's a "tax").


  15. Torr

    Torr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    You're right... single target attacks are lacking. For single targets you are looking for high damage... skills like 7SSS and Pillar fo the Ancients comes to mind. None of the generators fit the bill. We call some generators single target relative to each other, but on the whole I don't think it matters what generator you use against powerful single targets. Just my opinion.

    As for the 8% bonus from Combination Strike, I actually do think it's alot considering it's relatively easy to keep it up. To me it is tempting, but the reason I don't do it is because I don't want to give up my other spenders for that 8%. If you force me to pick a side, then yes... I don't want 2 generators. I'm not yet ready to say if others want to do it that they are wasting thier time because I like to see build diversity. But for me, I have no room for it in my 6 active skill choices.
  16. Chaboi

    Chaboi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    A lot will depend on how WotHF plays out.
  17. Torr

    Torr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    Yeah, WotHF still vexes me. If it's attack speed is good enough to beat out FoT for single target, it might force me to include it in my 6 skills... or at least switch my build over to it for boss battles.


  18. Chaboi

    Chaboi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    But are you going to want to switch to it for boss battles? Blizzard stated your nephalem valor will drop off
  19. Torr

    Torr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Attack speed analysis

    Heh heh you just hit on one of my pet peeves. Not going to worry about Nephalem Valor right now. It's a buff to magic and gold find that I don't get until level 60? Ummmm honestly, that whole mechanic seems like an artificial way to force players to stick with a build, and I find it slightly annoying. Call it my own personal little boycott of a decision Blizz made, but I'll get my magic find through other means if I really want it. I'm just put off by it right now because if they wanted to limit builds, they could have made respecs harder. Can't have it both ways, Blizz.

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