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3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

Discussion in 'Monk' started by Such Violent Storms, Apr 24, 2012. | Replies: 20 | Views: 3226

  1. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    I can see it now.

    Four highly skilled monks side by side in the front lines. CW spam with 18% Foresight and 15% Blazing Wrath buffs -- Blazing Wrath doubling as a heal to your nearby monks and one player with the Guiding Light passive for another 16% damage to anyone healed.

    Each one using a different Mantra:
    Overawe-runed MoC
    ???-runed MoH
    Transgression/Retaliation-runed MoR (Tricky which one is better... would have to work the numbers)
    ???-runed MoE

    Perhaps a Barbarian instead of the fourth Monk. Barbs provide shout buffs and are melee, so they take advantage of being up with the monks. In which case: which mantra should be replaced?

    What are your ideas/thoughts? Post builds of some insane damage Monk Madness? Gogogo!
  2. FulItilt

    FulItilt IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    So the Mantras definitely stack?
  3. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

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  4. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Damage and attack speed debuffs probably work similarly to slow effects, which would mean that an enemy can be affected by multiple debuffs, but only the most powerful one will apply at any given moment.
  5. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Not the same Mantra, of course. If you had 4 Monks with Overawe runed MoC, it wouldn't be 96% more damage. If you had 3 Monks with unruned MoC (12%) and one Monk with Overawe (24%), it would use the highest at 24%. But Mantra's with completely different effects do "stack" if that's even the right term. They just give their effects. MoC increases damage, MoE increases dodge, etc. As long as it's different it applies.

    I think enemies can be affected by multiple debuffs and will be affected by each one as long as they're different; a Monk hitting with Resolve (-25%) and Barbarian with Threatening Shout (-20%) would reduce damage by -45%, but 2 Barbarians both using Threatening Shout doesn't give you a "Mega Threatening Shout" and would only reduce damage by -20%.


  6. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Maybe, but ready yourself for the possibility, that enemy damage may be reduced by only 25% in that case.
  7. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    i think thats rather unlikely ; i mean the monk alone can accumulate 55% dmg reduction. and if they dont stack it would be utterly stupid.

    though maybe they stack in a multiplicative faishon like 1 / 1.25 (resolve) / 1.2 (crippling W) / 1.1 (mantra conviction) = 0.606

    so instead of 45% remaining dmg (which would be the dmg if you'd only add the dmg reduction debuffs ) it would only be 60,6% dmg reduction.

    maybe its even 1 * 0.75 (resolve) * 0,8 (crippling W) * 0,9 (mantra C) which would turn out to be 54%

    though thats just speculation my part.
  8. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    And how would that be fair to other classes? The Monk already has an innate 30% damage reduction. A further 40% DR from our armor is guaranteed at level 60, since it will only require 2000 Armor. You can reach that with white gear. Then you would have this 55% or 60.6% enemy damage reduction on top of that. If the devs balance the game for this, then other classes will be one-shotted. The more I think about this the more unlikely I find that damage and attack speed debuffs will stack and I didn't even consider debuffs in a party yet.

    They already should have learned this lesson from WoW. Some concepts can be applied to both games.
  9. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    so what ? I could just aswell explain why i do not have ranged 17 yard ae skills or dozens of summons ; its not like you get those debuffs for free you have commit runes / rotations and passive skill slots to it ; also you need to hit first before any of those 45% dmg reduction is appllied at all ;

    and what about things like archon / magic weapon / sparkflint familiar / conflaguration / glass canon /
    Time Warp / disruption arcane torrent.
    isnt it totally imba and unfair that all of these stack ?

    3rd i find your analogy to WoW on this utterly disturbing / insulting ... this isnt WoW ; this are not 40-25 man raids *sigh*


    PS also the dmg reduction is which is unique to barb and monk is is multiplicative aswell ;
    its not like the average character has 50% mitigation whereas monks and Barbs have 80% its more like 65%.

    i dont see any reasonable conclusion as to why they would not stack in one way or the other;
  10. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Sure, but if these bonuses stack, then players won't care about the commitment, because it will mean ridiculous amount of damage reductions, especially in parties. At what point does the price of becoming nigh-invincible too high?

    Do they?

    It wasn't my intention to insult you. However, WoW and D3 do have similar game mechanics (no matter how hard people try to deny this fact) and so you can learn many things from the failures of WoW which could benefit D3.

    At the beginning, there was no restriction in debuff stacking in WoW at all. You know what happened? People did 40 man raids with 36 Mages, 2-3 healers and one tank. Some classes were considered completely worthless for certain fights. Things improved greatly, when debuffs were changed so only the most powerful effect could take place in any given time. For example, when a monster was affected by a 20% and 30% attack speed debuff simultaneously, then its attack speed was only reduced by 30% until the more powerful buff ended. Suddenly more or less every class became viable for almost any encounter, because the different types of debuffs they brought for the party became much more important. Oh how some of the classes have wept. Still, it was one the best things that happened to the game.

    It doesn't matter that D3 doesn't have 40 man raids, the principle is the same. Incessant debuff and buff stacking will hurt class and build viability greatly.


    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  11. WhiteGiant

    WhiteGiant IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    this still isnt wow and thus your analogy is void. we dont have 40 people ; we have 4 ; we dont have Boss encounter which take us about 30 minutes to kill ; we dont have tank classes and healer classes, the combat is fluent you dont just stay around watch your rotation timer ; so youll know when to press the next button. 50% dmg reduction is not nigh invurnability ; its 50% dmg reduction ; no more no less how you know 50% dmg reduction deosnt wreck you in 10 instead of 5 seconds anyway ?

    this isnt WoW the dmg is you'll recieve is not supposed to be completely predictable.

    Second ; it wont hurt any builds : again this isnt WoW , you can solo all content ; you'll depend on no one. the Maximum playersize is 4 if i feel like some is a leaching jerk who does nothing but afking around i just leave or start votekick; it will take me like 20 seconds to restart another game. and from what i have seen you even start from your latest checkpoint if you click proceed game (or whatever that button is in english)

    I see where you come from ; that does not mean though that i agree ; its logical that the combined strength of multiple Allies is greater than the parts they are made of ; but that is the case from pretty much all skills which buff / cc / heal / debuff in one kind or the other.

    i just absolutely follow your line of logic or sentiment. It is ok to pile on buffs heals and stuns ? but dmg reduction debuffs are the holy grail of game mechanics ?
  12. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    I won't be OK with how CCs and heals work either, if they could be used to trivialize the gameplay. I want Inferno to be a real challenge, but I don't see how that will be possible if damage debuffs stack like many people think they do. I guess we'll just have to wait until May 15 to find out. :)
  13. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Inferno (high level) monsters could easily have a value that reduces debuff intensity. Similar to how D2 would cut things like Open Wounds by 1/8th or more in PvP, a level 62 monster could reduce all debuffs by some fraction of what they would be on a Normal-mode Fallen.


  14. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    I didn't discount that possibility. However, Jay said in the past that they aren't fans of diminishing returns in general, because it's a mechanic that's not very visible to players and that there won't be resistance penalties in the higher difficulties like in D2. Granted, he said these things a long time ago and they may have changed their minds. Also, none of it is directly relevant to the topic at hand, but still, I have the feeling that they won't go in the direction you proposed, especially since they already implemented a perfectly good way of handling this problem for movement slowing effects.
  15. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    It's not necessarily a diminishing return as it is just increasing monster brawn. Monster health, armor, and damage improves, but it's not diminishing returns if your spell does 300 damage to a Fallen and only 25 to Diablo. So if my debuffs don't work as well against an Inferno rare mob I wouldn't feel bad or anything.

    But what I think will be interesting with monks is not reducing enemy damage, but dodging it all together. Monks can get tons of Dexterity (fist weapons, spirit stones) and have skills that allow a cool +30% dodge right off the bat. It takes a load off of Armor and Resistances when Dodging an attack means 0 damage.


  16. redrach

    redrach IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    The problem with relying on avoiding damage as opposed to reducing it on every hit is that a few unlucky hits in a row that bypass your defenses could outright kill you. Combined with the fact that Monks have a similarly abrupt way of raising their health (Heals), I expect Monk HP bulbs to bob like yo-yos. :D


  17. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Yeah, if you only relied on dodging you could get spiked with a few lucky hits and die, so good balance is needed. But just Mantra of Evasion (15%) + Guardian's Path (15%) + massive Dexterity suddenly turns 4 monks into very difficult targets. Combine with an innate 30% damage reduction, heals and protection, and easy access to massive Armor from Seize The Initiative or high Resistances from One With Everything and it's insane.


  18. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Indeed, the Monk will be the king of dodging attacks. Right now, 1000 DEX equals 30% Dodge and that won't be that hard to reach at level 60. With Mantra of Evasion and Guardian's Path a Monk could easily maintain 49.4% Dodge ((1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.15)) at all times. I'm actually theorycrafting a build at the moment that would turn the huge amounts of Dodge a Monk could amass into offense.
  19. Such Violent Storms

    Such Violent Storms IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Are you sure that's how +% dodge is calculated? I just can't help but think it's simple adding: 30% + 15% + 15% for 60%. It seems wordy, like Fists of Thunder is multiplicative and MoE is additive.

    I've also made a dodge-themed Monk Build, but because the Backlash rune on MoE isn't certain ("has a chance to..."), it's kind of hopeless. It's better to not base a build around dodge and just use CW or WotHF to kill stuff, but I hope it changes. Who knows what the "has a chance to" actually is, but I'd like to see Backlash be at least 70% chance to deal damage, then you could do something like this:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#abhXgT!dWX!Zccbba

    The last skill and last passive being variable. The main spender is Mantra of Evasion. The other option is Dashing Strike Blinding Speed as the main spender, but you can't maintain the bonus from Fists of Thunder and it gets all annoying.


  20. Hellpyre

    Hellpyre IncGamers Member

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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#abgifh!dWX!ZccZYc I was working on the same thing, and got something like this, with the possibility of replacing Seize the Initiative with Combination strike if the attacks getting through aren't too worrying. Keeping Sweeping Wind up along with Foresight will help put out steady damage on the enemies hopefully wailing on you in large groups - especially when you bring them in with Cyclone Strike.


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