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1h vs. 2h help

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by dragon457, May 29, 2012. | Replies: 17 | Views: 7302

  1. dragon457

    dragon457 IncGamers Member

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    So, I'm feeling pretty dumb right now. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why I would use a 2h instead of 2 1h's with my barb. What makes this more frustrating to me is that all the 2h weapons I'm finding or can buy/craft (not counting AH) seem to have the same DPS as all the 1h I'm finding.

    Short scenario: I have 2 1h axes that do 30 DPS each. I find a 2h that does maybe 32 DPS. I equip the 2h thinking I'll get more damage out of it, but that's simply not the case. My damage number on my paper doll goes down.

    I understand that my damage number on my paper doll is based on the damage of my 2 1h's together, hence the higher number. But is that not a good indicator of the actual damage I'll be doing vs. using a 2h? Are any of my barb's skills going to be better/worse using the 2h vs. 1h's?

    I guess I'm just confused as to why I'd ever want to use a 2h since the DPS on just about every one I've found is roughly the same is any individual 1h I've found.

    What am I missing?
  2. Kingu

    Kingu IncGamers Member

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    DPS will be similar, as it is artificial damage per second, but look at it's factual damage and try it out, how you feel killing with it.
  3. Coriolis

    Coriolis IncGamers Member

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    You were just unlucky on your 2h drops, normally 2h weapons of equivalent quality have somewhat more dps. Dual wielding gives an inherent 15% attack speed increase so if the dps is the same between the 1h and the 2h, the 1h's will be better.
  4. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    What does inherent mean in that context? That it speeds up the (in D2 terms) base speed of a weapon by 15%? That would mean that no matter how many IAS from items and skills the tharacter has, that 15% will effectively lead to 15% more DPS and charging up of frenzy speed and fury by 15%, correct?
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  5. Stealthyfish

    Stealthyfish IncGamers Member

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    As i see it the only reason to dualwield 2x1h is for the stats and for the faster fury.
    The downside of dualwielding is that you have to find 2 very equal weapons, since you only hit 15% faster and you switch between the weapon you hit with, so the worse weapon will steal a hit from the good weapon.

    Another thing you have to take into account is your abilities, you may gain fury faster with 2x 1h weps, but the ability damage is not calculated from your dps but from your weapon damage*multipliers

    and since 2h weps usually hit slower they have a higher base weapon damage,thus increasing the damage from your abilities.

    Sadly i cant say anything about how the attack speed is calculated.
  6. dragon457

    dragon457 IncGamers Member

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    Hm. OK, so let me try this then; on purely a damage level, if my two 1h's are 30 DPS each, would a 2h need to be more than 60 DPS to make up the damage output, or is that not the case? I do understand that base weapon damage would be higher with a 2h, but that still doesn't help me mentally translate all that into real damage output when comparing weapons swaps.

    As much as I hated DPS checks in WoW (boy, do I not miss that) I still wish there was some decent way to find out my real damage output when swapping out weapons.
  7. hubb

    hubb IncGamers Member

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    @krischan
    1.5 * 1.19 * 1.15 = 2.05275
    Seems like it.

    @dragon
    Like they already said, the 15% IAS bonus accounts for the increase in DPS. I'm pretty (not at all) sure that you can just go 30*1.15 = 34.5 DPS, i.e a 2-hander needs to do more than 34.5 DPS to beat two 30 DPS weaps.
  8. RAWR

    RAWR IncGamers Member

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    The problem is that abilities dot use DPS, they use weapon dmg.

    A 1H weapon might do 100-200 dmg with 2 attacks per second, making the DPS 300.

    A 2H weapon might do 200-400 dmg with 1 attack per second, making the DPS 300.

    Seems pretty clear that the 1H is better because you still have an extra open item slot, right? Well, I you use a ability that does 200% of weapon damage it's hitting twice as hard with the 2H weapon then with the 1H weapon. However, you're not generating fury as quickly with the 2H weapon because of its fewer attacks per second, so maybe you can only use that ability half as often making the overall dmg output the same (DPS); 2 small attacks or one big one. The problem is those relationships are not so clear cut and it's not quite so easy to decide what's best without trying out different weapons with different skills.
  9. hubb

    hubb IncGamers Member

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    Says who? The tooltip?


  10. dragon457

    dragon457 IncGamers Member

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    This. Thanks for wording it this way. I can finally wrap my brain around it.

    In the end, it seems to be more about the trade off between fury generation and damage than just DPS, which was tripping me up.

    So, I can get more damage from the 2h, but might not generate fury as quickly as 2 1h's. Thanks, RAWR. Now I get it.



  11. Coriolis

    Coriolis IncGamers Member

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    This crops up so often on this forum it should be stickied. No, slower is not better for barbs/monks, because while you'll hit harder with a 2h, you'll build less rage (since you get rage per every attack). So you only care about dps, which is what the character build shows you. There's other details and for certain skills (like revenge since it's not based on fury) it's not that simple, but basically dps is about as good a metric as you can get for barbs/monks. It's really not that complicated.

    And for the 1h dps, you can basically just take the average of their dps and multiply by 1.15. If you don't need to worry about stats (like str/dex) that should be enough. So say 20 dps and 40 dps weapon, would be 30*1.15 dps when dual wielding.
  12. RAWR

    RAWR IncGamers Member

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    I don't think anybody said slower is better...it's dependent on your build.

    If my build relies on furious charge, revenge and overpower as my main sources of dmg, I would prefer a higher base dmg weapon because my rotation is controlled by cooldowns and procs and is less dependent on a constant rate of fury generation.

    If my build relies on seismic slam and rend for dmg then it's going to be more important to have faster fury generation.

    If I want to use a mix of those skills then it probably depends on my playstyle.

    If earthquake is my knockout punch in inferno, I want the slow 2H with high dmg then a fast 1h with low dmg.


  13. Coriolis

    Coriolis IncGamers Member

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    If you rely on seismic slam, it doesn't matter what your weapon speed is. Faster weapons would mean more fury, and more (but weaker) seismic slams, slower would mean fewer (but stronger). The actual damage over time would only depend on your weapons dps, not on whether it's slow or fast. Hence why you just look at dps and don't worry about speed. The same applies to the vast majority of barb skills.

    People have also reported that damage abilities with cooldowns (like your furious charge and overpower) are also normalized to be based on weapon dps, not weapon damage despite what the tooltips may say, so even for those cases it doesn't matter (although the testing here hasn't been thorough to my knowledge, so perhaps blizzard have messed this up).
  14. The Rockman

    The Rockman IncGamers Member

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    Wizard CD/summoning skills are based on DPS according to forums. Dunno about the barbs CD skills, though I expect they all will be based on DPS (as the major limiter on output here is the CD in a long fight).
  15. ixobelle

    ixobelle IncGamers Member

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    AMEN. I could not wrap my brain around it either until this thread. I registered just to say thanks.

    SHORT VERSION:

    Although you may do more damage using 2x 1Hs ON AUTOSWINGS, when you begin hitting buttons whose tooltips indicate "does 286% weapon damage" you're looking at doing 286% of either like 77 or 190... which adds up in the long run.

    Paperdoll stats "go down" but overall damage in game goes UP.

    Awesome post. You are loved.


  16. zakaluka

    zakaluka IncGamers Member

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    I know I've had my turn beating this dead horse even here, but then playing actual builds and testing different things I've kind of come to the conclusion that all the theory on the value of haste is pretty pointless.

    Lots of abilities don't actually use weapon damage, but weapon dmg * weapon speed as their base damage. (things on a trigger or cd, yet not everything you could classify as such) It seems like the VALUE of haste is much more strongly tied to how much synergy haste has with your build, rather than how hard that 1 key ability will hit for. If you've spent much time on recent blizzard games, you know that they purposefully simplify their tooltips to be idiot-proof. Don't try to get too many facts from them. The damage tooltip is just supposed to let players gauge the different skills in terms of overall strenth, while in fact the actual numbers or wording in the tooltips may be completely inaccurate for one reason or another.

    So you will just have to try dual wield for yourself, and get a feel for how it plays against your 2-hander. But as others have pointed out, it's really important to have two weapons with very similar DPS. Otherwise you waste the benefit of dual wield. I know a pure-DPS barb that manages relatively well with a crit-stacking build and a 2-hander. I know a frenzy-haste turtle barb that dual wields and has a good bit of trouble.

    Haste is wierd. It does strange things to your resources (and your mobility) that are hard to put a real value on. I have a HC barb, but I've focused on my SC wiz quite a bit more to this point. Not sure where I'll eventually wind up on this. 1h/oh is a much more straight forward problem than dual wield. As is 2h/oh (blizzard trolling us with 2h bow/offhand!)
  17. Mrjones

    Mrjones IncGamers Member

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    1h is better then 2h for a couple of reasons. You get 2 slots means double the stats you will alway get more stats using 2 items instead of one.
  18. ixobelle

    ixobelle IncGamers Member

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    Right, but every time you hit a button (ESSPLOSION!!!) you are gimping yourself.

    I guess it depends on playstyle mostly. I tend to jump into the biggest clump of monsters I can find, so when I hit "plus 400% weapon damage skill XYZ", and it hits 20 mobs, my 2h is going to hit that much harder (times twenty).


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