Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

12 years and the end game is still not improved

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Silmarien, Apr 10, 2012. | Replies: 86 | Views: 4469

  1. Silmarien

    Silmarien IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Long read imminent.
    I have to say I am having a hard time viewing this as anything other than Diablo 2's next expansion with a technology upgrade.

    I went through the beta on each character and my first thoughts were: "cool graphics, nice looking skills, but still feels like the D2 classes". Really very little changed with them despite what people think - the only real difference is the interface affecting skills and runes.

    Let me tell a brief story. Going back to 2001 when LOD came out I was the first person to come to these forums and say that LOD was too easy. Back then, I'd gotten to level 77 in the first 24 hours of LOD's release In hardcore mode like it was nothing, with some buddies like Pyschosrage and other guys who were ladder leaders in classic D2. I was harangued for this opinion because ultimately I realized that there was no point to the game really. Classic mode was farming, and hardcore mode used to be about surviving as long as you could, but even that was taken away.

    Fast forward to D3 and immediately you can see that first of all, the level cap is very reachable. So you can take out any notion of ladder chasing where you're scrimping out scraps of XP to hit the next level. Not only does Softcore mode literally become ONLY ABOUT ITEMS. I agree that xp loss is a terrible idea but really, if the level cap is so achievable, you mean to tell me, that items alone is an acceptable end game?

    Even Hardcore mode you can see that you will easily hit level cap quickly, presumably in nightmare mode. That really leaves one thing: trying to progress as far as you can in Hell or Inferno. Except its hard to see the point in that because you're not progressing your character at all, you're just farming up more equipment to handle content you've beaten twice and now have to beat 2 more times?

    The blues say that content repetition is not what causes boredom - not progressing your character is. Well I think that hitting level 60 and doing nothing but upgrading your items in endless content repetition IS THE SAME as not progressing your character but lets say he's not splitting hairs. I disagree with the statement because there is a mountain of evidence suggesting otherwise that repeating content again and again bores people to tears. D2LOD showed this, WOW has absolutely shown this and i could go on but ill limit it to just related examples. Who enjoyed bloody foothills farming and Baal runs? People liked progressing in WOW up until it became farm content and even then, the main enjoyment was the social aspect - not the content itself. Once it became farm, people got bored and realized they were spending 5 hours a day doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 3 months. But at least in an MMO you can count on another content patch one day. With D3 what you get, is what you get until an expansion is released.

    But you look at the gameplay and their solution for end game is a 4th "epic" difficulty level? Please. That screams pointless. People will maybe make it through Hell, they'll reach Inferno, they'll break their heads against it and they'll say "WHY AM I WASTING MY LIFE on doing this a 4th time?" Achievements? Some marginally better items? While I will admit its better than having a joke of a game that is so easy anyone can fly right to the end of it (LOD), I still question the decision to define an end game with an extra difficulty level. Why not just make Hell mode the "inferno" mode? Because the longevity can be lengthened arbitrarily with FOUR difficulty levels!! Is the expansion going to have a 5th mode?

    You heard it here first, the inability of the devs to upgrade this game's gameplay is going to be a dagger in this game's heart. The addicts will still say its great, like they do with Diablo 2 10 years after its demise, the underemployed will still try to eke out a few cents a day on the RMAH and praise the economic aspect, but many people will play through the story, maybe even try out each character, and quickly realize the game is STALE, just like LOD became within 48 hours to me and anyone else with the sensibility to see that there was no point left to doing PVE in it.

    extra difficulty levels is not an end game, and we should all be clamoring for a better solution than this so-called inferno mode. yeah i'll still buy the game but only because $60 is nothing, i spend that much on Starbucks in a month. I just have a hard time believing that after 12 years, all that we're really getting is Diablo 2 with a technology boost. It will make blizzard lots of money no doubt but at the end of the day, people will realize it was just another time sink of finding items for no purpose other than the sake of finding items. Then people can tell stories about how they found that "IST" rune 4 years after they started playing.
  2. Raesene

    Raesene IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    What happened in the world of gaming that made people think that "end game" is the only thing that matters in a video game? Why does the experience of playing through the game from beginning to end mean absolutely nothing?

    I don't really know what it is you expect Blizzard to do. Unless they are releasing a new Act worth of content every single week, then repeating content is pretty much what you will always end up doing.

    You get out of the game what you put into it. Some players will enjoy PvPing after they complete the PvE content. Some will enjoy the endless item hunt, trying to constantly find the "best in slot" for all their characters. Others will enjoy playing through the story, feel they got the $60 worth, and move on to other things. In all these cases, the vast majority of players will eventually get board and move on to other things.

    Diablo 3 isn't going to become a failure just because it doesn't define your life over the next 10 years. That's quite a tall order for a video game.
  3. Wildmoon

    Wildmoon IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    What do you expect from Diablo? I want Diablo sequel that is still true to Diablo franchise. If there's WoW-like end game then I will be the first not to buy this game. Diablo for me is about loot hunting and smashing face.
  4. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,617
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    121
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    not gonna lie i stopped at this



    great question. it seems a lot has changed in gaming. end game is all that matters, calling something casual is like running over your dog, and being the best is not good enough


    like wildmoon said, what kind of end game do you want? i have played D1 and D2 way too much and from the sounds of it D3 end game will be much improved over those. people seem to forget this is a diablo game? i really think if you have a problem with the end game in D3 you should just give up playing ARPG forever


  5. AlexanderBarin

    AlexanderBarin Clan Officer - US East Hardcore

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,709
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    I'm all for Blizz charging $15 monthly fee and adding content like it does with WoW.

    But WoW player base =/= Diablo player base.
  6. Darkflight

    Darkflight IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    I'll shorten your comments to make my post shorter.

    Right now we have access to way to few runes,skills and to little game content to be able to see the difference. I think that anyone who wants to actually figure stuff out on their own will have to experiment quite a bit when they reach Inferno to figure out what they want and need.

    There is no point to any videogame other then what you put in it. While your opinion that the game was pointless is valid, it is still YOUR opinion. I thought Diablo 2 was quite meaningful, as my goal was to find all the set and unique items in the game. When I gave up the only one I was missing was Tyreals Might. At that point I had played Diablo 2 LOD for 4-5 hours a day on average for over 2 years. What more could I expect for 60$ or so?

    There is more to progression then leveling. Most people in Diablo 2 stopped actively leveling at about level 85 because the experience gains was starting to get so low at that point that getting any more was unrealistic. Progression is about making your character stronger, which can be accomplished both by leveling and by gearing. Blizzard seem to think that gearing is enough progression to make people feel satisfied, so that's what we are going to have.

    Repeating content over and over isn't the problem. I did tens of thousand of Ancient Tunnels runs, probably several 100,000 Pindleskin runs and probably around 20,000 Hell Mephisto runs because that was what it was going to take to get the grail. I didn't stop because I was bored of the places, I stopped because I knew that the odds of finding Tyreals Might was so low that I could easily spend years running Ancient Tunnels and not see it. What happened when I quit was that I improved my character as much as I feasibly could, and then quit when future upgrading was unrealistic. Even though I wasn't going to wear Tyreals Might, it felt like an upgrade since it was what I needed to complete the grail.

    It's the same thing with WoW for me, I am getting bored of it since it unrealistic that my guild will get further then our current 1/8 heroic Dragon Soul progression. What happens is that people get bored of a game when the payoff is either already achieved (meaning best in slot gear and fully progressed) or when it becomes unrealistic that you will ever get the payoff because it is out of your reach due to difficulty.

    If Inferno is as hard as they say, there will be tons of people breaking their heads against it and getting annoyed. But they will not say "Why am I wasting my life doing this for the fourth time?". They will say "Why is this so god damn difficult?". Then they will quit since the payoff of completing the game is out of reach and they have basically farmed up the best gear they realistically can in Hell.

    Inferno mode made sense when it was a flat difficulty, but only if they had made all the acts and quests available right of the bat when you completed Hell. So you didn't have to progress through it, but could just go where you wanted to farm gear. Right now without a flat difficulty I agree that Inferno is a pretty pointless way to make the game longer. 3 difficulties is what we are used to, 4 is a much more unsatisfying number phsycologically.

    Alot of people will feel that the game is stale no matter what Blizzard does. Those people are the kind that jumps from game to game, only playing them for the story. They get bored easily and try a little of everything. There is nothing wrong with what they do, but there is nothing wrong with what Blizzard is doing either since those people can't be pleased.

    I have hard time understanding how you can call a game demised when it is still played quite a lot 11 years after the release of the last major content to the game. While it might have outlived it's purpose in your life, there are tons of people who have played Diablo 2 for years and still play.

    If extra difficulty isn't an end game, then basically no games in the world has an end game. And people will eventually get bored of Diablo 3, that isn't exactly something you need to be a prophet to be able to see.

    What you need to do is come up with solutions instead of whining about what you see as a problem. Give some real suggestions of what the end game should be. And keep in mind that you are trying to sell as many copies of this game as possible.



    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  7. kpaxlol

    kpaxlol IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Man... That was the problem with WoW. The linear progression. Constantly going up with new content and re-gearing your character for the particular patch. The only fun thing was the fights, not gear. At least for me, coming from a top 50 guild. Every patch your gear just resets and you're on to farm some more bosses. And they made it easier as Wotlk came.. Diablo is all about random items and huge spikes in your progression, and repeating it. For me I like the gamble aspect of it and the trade aspect.

    You can always get lucky and find a clueless guy to sell you that 45l lite sk just for some ists or a ber even. You can always get some sicko drop that no-one else has(although I admit that this (almost) never happens). It was fun laddering hardcore. And imo the ladder resets kept D2 from being abandoned. Probably it would be good with less often resets if there weren't the duping/botting methods of getting rare items but w/e. Hope that D3 rare items are as rare as the D2 ones, combined with no botting or just no duping, it will be fine and it will take you a long time before getting the good legendary items and getting on top of that economy.


  8. beingmused

    beingmused IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    121
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Hah!

    Is the pursuit of "items alone" sufficient to drive softcore's endgame? Absolutely. Your belief that chasing non-item character progression (super high levels) is more fun than chasing item character progression is not shared by most people. And it sounds like inferno will never be easy, so it still gives you an incentive to keep improving your character as much as possible.

    Why add inferno mode instead of just making hell tougher? Because it does something different - a difficulty where everything is always a level beyond yours. In D2, you were still doing your leveling in hell difficulty, and when you got to a certain point you out leveled all of it. That doesn't happen in inferno.

    Also: hardcore will be hard. Infinite end game enjoyment there.


  9. AlexanderBarin

    AlexanderBarin Clan Officer - US East Hardcore

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,709
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Content does not need to mean better gear. Content may mean more areas, monsters, bosses, quests, skills, runes, classes, skins and more gear that is different but not better than existing gear.
  10. kpaxlol

    kpaxlol IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Yeah. I got ya. But still, they'll probably add new acts in the X-pacs :)

    But personally I hope for patches like 1.09 where they add a bunch of uniques, or patches that include random world events that require the players to discover something that isn't present in the patch notes :p


  11. pwt

    pwt IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Dear Silmarien, please, could you enlighten me(us) what woud be a decent end game for you then?

    On a side note, this made my day:

    In a wow-like game, an expansion (60e) has 2 content patches (as much!) and last 2 years (as less!). So you payed 60 + (24 * 15) = 420e in two years for three "expansions". Assuming d3 and its expansions cost 60e, 420/60 = 7!!!! if over a million people sign a contract to buy d3 plus six more expansions in the next 2 years and 1 month, they'll surely will do it (if they dont die first out of a hapiness heart attack), not to mention if ten million people sing it.

    Please consider that this is a business. Dont compare mmo's, specially wow with an ARPG, the incomings are in another league, its like my local basketball team playing against Los Angeles Lakers...


  12. Eeryck

    Eeryck IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    I really don't think it is the game that is broken these days. What is really broken is the players and how we approach games.

    The whole reason anyone would every sit down and spend some time playing a video game in their life should to relax and escape for a period of time. To become immersed in something else that takes you away from "regular" existence. So that when you go back to regular life you are somewhat refreshed and had an interesting experience.

    The fact that we as gamers have placed so much emphasis on world first with 24/7 character play through until all content is cleared is completely broken. To what end is all of this some epeen to say "FIRST" Sorry I have not been a 12 year old boy for quite some time now.

    It is not possible to make a game that can meet the expectation of the people that I have described so far. Well there is one way, the infinite dungeon. But then no one will approach it because there is no "end" so no one can "win".

    If this new iteration is anything like the previous versions in difficulty, I expect that it will take me some time to just clear Hell difficulty and sure I will be a bit behind the curve. But it will be about the journey and sure at times it will be a grind, but in the end when I go back to my real life, I will be refreshed and entertained.

    Honestly, there are not any other games out there right now that have this quality for me anymore.

    Personally, I will probably approach D3 "in a vacuum" and experiment with the game for quite some time before I come back to the forums to find out what items, stats, and skill choices are overpowered. There is just something about that process that I find "entertaining". That said, the game that Blizzard has presented to me, I can see myself playing for a year or two before I have seen the full spectrum of what the game has to offer and by that time an expansion will come out and I will get some more content.

    To the OP, you have a lot of criticism of Blizzard, but you offer no solution. You cry like a little child "Entertain me" but you offer nothing to what you find entertaining. Perhaps it is not the games you play that are broken...
  13. Brak

    Brak IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Shorter OP:
    "LOL D2 was so easy, I barely played it. I can't believe they're trying to make D3 hard, no one will want to play it."

    was there a point to this post other than bragging about how fast you got a highish level in LOD or telling everyone that you like wasting money on ****e coffee?
  14. Silmarien

    Silmarien IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Again, if you want to be the guy who 4 years from now is saying "oh I remember when I found my first Ist rune!" except its insert some other rare item, then more power to you.

    For the rest of us, extra difficulty levels is at BEST a marginal improvement over what was the abomination of LOD - that is a game that was easy AND pointless. Nevertheless, the end game is still nothing more than finding items! In hardcore, as I stated there is a bit more (living as long as you can) but since you will be at level cap most of the time when you die, where is the progression?

    You will just be repeating the content until the coinciding of chance and bad luck occur that gets you killed. That is all hardcore is going to be. You get to level 60, you progress in hell, you die. Start over, get farther, die. Start over, get to inferno even, die.

    The end game is this endless repetition of content. It makes no sense. They can't come up with something better? They even removed PVP so you have no measurable way to test yourself.

    You don't even have the opportunity to show anyone what you've achieved. You beat inferno...who knows about it? You acquired the best items after months and years of farming - who knows about it? When I play Assassin's creed, i do it knowing i just want to see the environment and mess around with new abilities. after story mode is over, its a done game. But those take them less than a year to make. This game is 5 years in the making and 12 years since the last - and its still the same game, with a graphical boost. The classes are basically the same, the items are reused in many, many cases.

    In any case, obviously no one wants to hear that the game will be just another expansion, but then again some people really enjoy finding Ist runes after their 4th year playing the game. So I guess this will appeal to some but im afraid D3 will die out as fast as SC2 did and SC2 at least had replayable competition against human opponents.

    you can wear the wool over your eyes, but I won't and like I said, we should be clamoring for something better.
  15. Hyliangod

    Hyliangod IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    99
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned to him yet that you don't hit 60 until the end of hell, this isn't D2 style of leveling its drawn out over the game. You WON"T hit 60 in NM so you will be constantly progressing until inferno at least for levels and getting skill runes.
  16. Eeryck

    Eeryck IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Silmarien you still offer no insight to what would be "improved" in your opinion. So lets hear it. What is this better your propose we clamor for?
  17. MathewPoland

    MathewPoland IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Silmarien... Is whining all you can do or can you tell us what should D3's endgame look like to make you satisfied?
  18. Silmarien

    Silmarien IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    I'm not paid to be a game designer, so I can't profess to be full of ideas off the top of my head. No idea could be come up with in any case on the spot - that is what development timelines and meetings are for (if you have worked in a real job this is common knowledge)

    I can say though that I played the previous Diablo incarnations and I found the end game aspect WOEFULLY unfulfilling. I am just amazed that after 12 years, all we are going to get is a reskinned game. Call it and dress it up how you want, anyone that is capable of being objective would see past all the shiny features and recognize that nothing is really changed. I guess there's a crowd of people who are cool with that but come on, 12 years later and we haven't made progress on the game? tweaked items, tweaked classes, and zones thats it? That's Diablo patch 1.14, not Diablo 3.

    Getting upset because I point out some objective flaws, really just makes one sound like a subjective fanboi who would accept anything they were given. Thats not the point of forums - to be sycophantic.


  19. dragon457

    dragon457 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    I don't think Diablo was the first dungeon crawler, but it certainly defined the genre. Almost all other ARPG's worth their weight in salt are compared to the yardstick that is Diablo. Why is that? My opinion (yep, opinion, like you stating your opinion) is that people liked: a) story/setting of Diablo, b) smashing faces and c) loot, loot and more loot.

    This has been Diablo's formula since DI, and hadn't changed up to DII: LOD. Why, then, would you expect it to change drastically now? If you're a fan of Diablo, then you're a fan of what it's always been. Expecting DIII to be some totally different experience, with a different endgame (God, really?) is saying that you don't want a Diablo game. You want WoW, or Elder Scrolls, or Pokemon (heh).

    DIII is what Diablo is, and always has been. Change the formula and you lose the essence. Think New Coke, but with demons.
  20. Raesene

    Raesene IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Re: 12 years and the end game is still not improved

    Diablo 3 = patch 1.14? Anyone who disagrees with this is a fanboi? You sir, are a troll.

Share This Page