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So I've been doing Nightmare runs of the Butcher and I've come to the realization that the creators of Diablo I are retarded. Don't get me wrong, the game is one of a kind and the godfather of practically a whole genre, but the mechanics are all messed up. Not only that, but this is the 9th version and they still haven't fixed it.
Let me explain. When a monster drops an item, first the game determines the base item. Then it gives it a 16% chance to become a unique, provided there is a unique for that base item and the unique is within the qlvl. If it is unique there is a unique available, then it will drop the one with the highest qlvl, and if they're the same qlvl, it will pick the first one on its list. However, because the game works this way, the items with the lower qlvl or the items lower on the list will never drop. So, I've counted about 30 unique items that won't drop.
Now, there is a way around this. You can fight monsters with low qlvls, but they still have to be high enough levels to drop the base item, which typically is much higher. Usually this means going to Nightmare difficulty. Of course, this means that the monster will be able to drop almost any base item, making it extremely hard to find any particular piece of gear. But the worst part, is that only a very narrow selection of enemies can drop these items. In most cases only the unique monsters on level 2 of Nightmare difficulty. Even then there are still about 15 uniques that will never drop no matter who you kill.
So now I'm stuck doing Butcher runs all day, getting no experience, on the off chance that I'll find my Helm of Sprits.
That drop system (always picking the first item) is really silly. There aren't *too* many uniques that are absolutely unfindable in multiplayer. Turning to Jarulf, we find:
Bramble (ring)
Crackrust (mace)
The Deflector (Buckler)
Gonnagal's Dirk (dagger)
Lightforge (mace)
The Mangler (large axe)
Technically, it *is* possible to find all these in single player, because the game keeps track of what you've found in the drop list. However, you'd have to have the exact same item drop unique in the same game and same play session (it resets if you save and quit). A difficult task, to be sure, and one that makes finding a Lightforge almost astronomically improbable, since you'd have to find *three* unique maces in the same game.
What I am curious about is the items that are findable, but have an extraordinarily low probability of dropping. If you check the probability charts, most uniques hover between the 1/20 and 1/100 range. Even your coveted Helm of Spirits has a 1/130 chance in Nightmare, and 1/140 chance in Hell. Some items, though, totally blow the curve: for example, the best chance you have of finding The Deadly Hunter, a bow, is 1/2100, in Nightmare! What gives!
I suppose it's not that bad considering a lot of the uniques will provide you with a good mod and then match it or overcompensate with bad mods. Most of these ultrarare items are almost as poor as their base item. Bleh. It really goes to show how much they improved on the loot aspect in DII.
I think the mixed-baggedness of the uniques in D1 is pretty charming. The uniques in D2 tend to go a bit over the top.
Probably the main problem with D1 uniques is that pretty much all of the weapons were useless for warriors, and a select few others were fantastic for mages and rogues.
Doesn't Jarulf's guide have a comprehensive list of which dlvls are best to find uniques on, and what your chances are on each level?
Yea, Jarulf's gives you the best dlvl as well as your chances of finding the item if you kill everything and flip every stone, chest, corpse, etc., which is what Kunzaito was referring to with the 1/130 chance. I found that you've got about 1/150 chance of getting a Helm of Sprits from those unique monsters on dlvl 2. Which means about 6 out of 7 of its drops come those monsters.
But, yea, the uniques in DII are over the top. And everytime they came up with a patch or new runewords, things just got more and more over the top.
The grandfather is pretty cool, but becomes inferior fairly fast. Then I have my Sorc w/ Dreamflange, Naj's Lightplate, Stormshield, and Thinking Cap. My Rogue has Windforce, Scavenger's Carpace, and Helm of Sprits. Whereas my warrior only has a unique helm.
Just popping in from the D2 section, and I must say I'm enjoying this discussion. Admittedly I haven't played D1 for around 5 years, so I'm rusty on the details to say the least, but that's aside the point. I just began playing hardcore here in D2, and haven't the godly 800% MF Meteor Sorceress that I have in softcore, so I'm stuck with doing the same kind of runs you are, if but with a different name.
Now, what surprise me is that you find these drop-rates so low. Compared to the single-player mode in D2, finding a specific item without a ridiculous amount of MF from a boss is usually 1/300-1/3000. And even with that Sorceress I mentioned, I've done 621 logged Mephisto runs, without yet having gotten a list of the most probable items, like Shako, Herald of Zakarum, Stone of Jordan, Mara's Kaleidoscope etc. You don't have waypoints or Teleport to speed things up in D1, which complicates a fair comparison, but perhaps you could enlighten me as to how long it would take to (theoretically) farm a Helm of Spirits? Then we could see if it is indeed unbalanced, or whether it's the same here in D2 as well...
Now, what surprise me is that you find these drop-rates so low. Compared to the single-player mode in D2, finding a specific item without a ridiculous amount of MF from a boss is usually 1/300-1/3000. ... You don't have waypoints or Teleport to speed things up in D1, which complicates a fair comparison, but perhaps you could enlighten me as to how long it would take to (theoretically) farm a Helm of Spirits? Then we could see if it is indeed unbalanced, or whether it's the same here in D2 as well...
Apples to oranges, here. Finding any one particular unique from a D2 boss is harder simply because of the greatly expanded number of things in the drop tables. D1 is a small game, with fewer things that can drop and far fewer uniques overall, plus bosses *must* drop at least a magical item.
*edit - Also, as previously mentioned, the drop tables in D1 are kind of screwed up, so a crappy bow that no one would use is 20x harder to find than one of the most valuable helms in the game, for instance. That is part of the complaint.
You have waypoints, in a sense, with the shortcuts to the caves/cats/hell. Most people play multi-player for that and the added monster challenge. And the levels are smaller - the most common "item run" is normal Lazarus, and to find him it probably takes around 10 minutes, possibly much less if you get lucky with the stairs.
For Helm of Spirits, farming dlvl 2 in NM, you should be able to get there in a minute or two - even the most poorly equipped character can walk through Fallen and skeletons.
So in essence it's not the droprates that pose an issue, as much as the game mechanics behind determining what items drop, and when. As long as the super rare bow is useless though, it's alright though I guess?
With 2 minute runs and a 1/130 drop chance, it really doesn't sound bad. Try to find a high rune in D2, and we're talking about real farming (check the D2 forums, there's a bloke who's logged 17.000 runs, which got him - I think - 3 of these types of runes). Also, isn't there a pattern in the way maps spawn? In D2 most maps have rules to where the entrances and waypoints are located (i.e. from Durance of Hate lvl2 waypoint, one finds lvl3 fastest by hugging the right wall. If it also works in D1, knowledge of this could greatly increase item running speeds and make it more enjoyable.
PS: Bosses in D2 are also guaranteed to drop a magical item or better.
Kunzaito
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