Other hardcore only rules?

[5zigen]

With all this talk about things like Respecs, I was wondering what the HC community thinks.

I see respecs being a large possibility for SC. I imagine blizzard will put them in in some capacity. However I feel like they degrade the hardcore experience far far more than they effect the SC experience.

That being said, if there is respecs in SC I hope they limit them to SC and leave HC respec free (in all forms, well, most forms, I wouldn't mind de-leveling for respecs).

Are there any other SC rules that you foresee being implemented but would prefer left out of HC?

[cbr]

Mutual hostility, I'm the opinion that there is no PK in Softcore, since nobody ever dies and all forms of PvP are to a degree mutual on SC. If Blizzard wants to implement mutual hostility they should do it only on SC and leave HC alone as it is.

[entranced]

Originally Posted by 5zigen

However I feel like they degrade the hardcore experience far far more than they effect the SC experience.

How so? Honest question.


I really don't know where i stand on the respec issue. It's hard for me to imagine D2 + respecs without actually experiencing it, so perhaps "i'll know when i see it". Yeah, once it's too late for Blizzard to change their mind. :/

FWIW i'm the type of player that basically never respecs in WoW. I do heavy research first and then pick one spec "for life". Rare situations that i do respec, and usually only minor changes at that:
-new max level (expansion pack releases);
-Blizzard changes or fixes a talent, or rearranges a talent tree;
-i level as dps when my max-level spec will be heal-spec (im a person that loves levelling way more than endgame, but levelling as a healer is just too painful because i level exclusively solo).

Hardly anything that seems game-breaking in D3 HC (since there's no healer classes), but i could be wrong.

I'm also the kind of person that doesn't like learning what talents are good and messing around with specs. I like to just use my own minor variant of proven specs that someone else figured out work well. I prefer focusing on other aspects of the game such as gameplay (with said good build) and items.

Another thing i'd like to mention is that i suspect that my above aversion to WoW respeccing may simply be a side-effect of my D2 upbringing. The "you only get one shot at your spec for life" breeds risk-aversion and complete lack of experimentation. Which leads me to believe that respeccing might actually be a good thing, even in D3. In WoW i'm more relaxed about spec experimentation and tailoring builds to my own tastes than D2, and that seems like a very good thing, for my playstyle anyway. Allows me to stray a little more from the cookie-cutter builds. That's good right?


One last thing i'd like to mention is that even if the option to respec is there, nothing will be forcing you to respec. If they put respecs in HC, you can always choose to play D2-style, respecs not allowed and retain your favored HC experience.

[5zigen]

Originally Posted by entranced

How so? Honest question.

Well let me preface this with the assumption that rushing a character to high level wont be possible or at least prevalent in D2.

In HC one of the draws for me was the the idea that you've made a character and reached a high level with it. Presumably in D3 some builds will be better at leveling than others, and some will be more difficult. With respecs, all of the 'prestige' or perceived accomplishment (From other people) will be diminished.

There's really a lot to be said about this because, for example, in D2 levling something like a LF Zon wasn't hard, but more just tedious. However I still think some characters actually were straight up more difficult, Martial arts assassin for example, vs pure trap assassin.

This is a common argument for normal play, but I think the 'no retries' makes it more potent in HC. In HC playing a difficult build to high level is actually a bit of an accomplishment, so having a high level MA Assassin sort of means something, not only to you but other people who see you and say "oh wow, you're MA". Not just because it may be seen as sub optimal, but because surviving to high level is difficult. If you can respec, surviving to high level just turns into a "level the fastest / safest build and change to whatever you want at the end" program, and all of the sudden you didn't level as an MA assassin without dying, but you leveled an assassin without dying.

On the other hand, in SC, even a monkey could level a sub optimal character to high level because it's impossible to lose your character. In HC actually getting to high level means a lot more.

Originally Posted by entranced

One last thing i'd like to mention is that even if the option to respec is there, nothing will be forcing you to respec. If they put respecs in HC, you can always choose to play D2-style, respecs not allowed and retain your favored HC experience.

This is also a common argument for respecs, but it's not just about the fact that no one is forcing you to respec, it's about accomplishment in my eyes and meaning something.

In my opinion that's the same reason we're playing HC. We do it not only for the challenge or the community, but for the recognition (if only from our peers, other HC players).

If you introduce respecs into the game all of the sudden that dynamic changes, the recognition goes to zero, which is the major incentive to not respec.

Imagine if they removed HC from D3 and just said "hey, there's nothing stopping you from simply deleting your character when you died, so you could just do that and retain your preferred game experience." but I know that somehow that wouldn't float for me and I doubt it would to any other serious HC player.

It's the same argument with respecs. That kind of thing might fly for SP players who arent doing it at all for the recognition or what have you, but for multiplayer players I think it would really diminish the experience.

[Kraye]

I really don't want repecs. I feel that there is more value on planning and strategy when there are no respecs. However, when balance changes are made, respecs should be granted.

My idea for making HC more Hardcore is a timer on health pot use. It doesn't have to be long, just a few seconds.

[Baranor]

No, i'd rather not be able to respec. Screw up, build again. Transfer the gear and next time around you'll be more powerfull

[Gigashadow]

Hardcore just makes you die, the rest should be the same for both SC and HC. Including hostility configurations.

If there is one place I wouldn't want to have to restart the whole thing its HC. There is nothing wrong with limited respecing and if the game is not too unbalanced it may not even occur. But what does one do against:
- patches;
- not knowing what a skill does;
- useless skills / skills that max badly;
- not knowing what items benefit what skills later on in the game.

It would not be too great to get stuck with some immunity creep that you can't kill because this is your first time, and/or you did not realize his immunities beforehand. Or get stuck because your damage ended up being too low or something.

It takes a lot to survive in HC, compared to SC, and I'd rather play a lot of SC first to figure everything out, than start or mid-start with HC where I don't know anything AND I can't respec so I am bound to fail no matter what I do.

[Lothae]

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

There is nothing wrong with limited respecing and if the game is not too unbalanced it may not even occur. But what does one do against:
- patches;
- not knowing what a skill does;
- useless skills / skills that max badly;
- not knowing what items benefit what skills later on in the game.

The same things we did in D2?

[Gigashadow]

Originally Posted by Lothae

The same things we did in D2?

Go play something else? Do a different build? Restart? Those are not solutions.

[Lothae]

It was a joke.

I was just saying that we've done fine in D2 in the past without respec'ing (just found out what that was today!) so those issues aren't a huge deal. It just sounded like you couldn't conceive playing without respec'ing. Sorry.