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OK, so a lot of you won't agree with the thread title, and that's fine. It made you click the thread.
The point is, while a lot of people enjoy Diablo 2 PvP, there's a lot who don't or find it lacking.
Now, while I was reading some comic in another D3 speculation thread, it mentioned something about team PvP play. Now, I'm sure this idea has been thought of before, or even mentioned here before, but specifically I'd like to discuss the possibilitiy of system where multiple people can team up and go against other teams.
I'll admit I'm thinking about DotA a little here, but Diablo 2 proved that PvP with classes is interesting and fun, and DotA proved team-based PvP with classes is fun, so why not incorprate that into Diablo 3 somewhat?
Can't you already do that in D2? I haven't played in awhile, but can't different people be in different parties, and then they can go fight or something.
back when 1.11 first came out on the first and second ladder the top pvp ppl would always meet up and play team duels, it usually ended up being a clan type duel, but they were very fun and to get into them you had to be a top dueler and be invited to the private games ... so there is team dueling in d2, alot of ppl just dont know about most of it
although i just started playing again, so it may not be like this anymore
Bakerking: Yeah, it's 'doable', but the thing is I believe you're dropped out of your party once you go hostile to someone (from memory). And unfortunately, many of the elements are lost because if you want to PvP with allies, you'll damage them indiscriminately. It'd be fun if Blizzard spent a little time (I'm not asking for a lot) on making some sort of team PvP option mainstream.
5zigen: Fascinating. How about: PvP implies player verses player balancing at the expensive of PvM balancing which implies waste of my time game. No? Thought out input is generally preferable to witty one-liners when you're on a forum.
If we actually examine what little of a point you have, it's easy to see that if 1v1 PvP is balanced, then the only extra effort needed for team PvP is to simply enable it. Obviously more support is possible, but it's not requisite.
It sounds indeed fun to add some kind of side quests or minigames in which you can PvP.
However, the DotA style idea sounds a bit unreachable. I highly doubt they will intentionally mix PvM with PvP, people will find this rediculous. In War3, it was a good idea since you started at level 1, monsters made you level and you could add a bit of RP to it. But on a RPG game, you start at level 80 and you will most likely 1 shot mobs, which have the possibilty to drop health globes (mobs hunting while PvP... bad idea).
Also, I thought you would bring up "arenas". I wouldn't see anything bad in addind WoW style arenas unless it gives you unfair advantage if you take part in them (also having the luck of finding a good team) such as the ones in WoW (getting OVERALL BEST GEAR). But I don't worry since Diablo will remain a loot game, in which you can't simply craft or earn (good) items. A ladder with arena however, i could totally see that. I'm pretty sure it's alot of other player's fantasy to see some sort of PvP ladder, in which you could be known as your realm's most badass mercyless killer =).
I think I'd quite like to see a reduction in damage vs other players for every allied team member (2p=70%, 3p=50%, 4p=36%, 5p=25%, etc). I'd need to test it to know if that would be a really terrible idea but at a guess this would add a lot to TvT.
TvT is really easy to do in D2 tbh, there's just not that much interest in it. Mostly due to the lack of prominent features that simplify the process, and the organisation involved. PvP altogether seems very much an afterthought in D2, it's testament to the gameplay that pvp's as rich and popular as it is. Look at titan quest. I hope to see some facilitation of pvp altogether, along with trading and whatever else... more emphasis on clans would particularly help tvt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwicseolfor
if 1v1 PvP is balanced, then the only extra effort needed for team PvP is to simply enable it
Just because something's balanced does not mean balance will remain as player # scales up, though that's mostly only a critical issue when healing is involved.
If we actually examine what little of a point you have, it's easy to see that if 1v1 PvP is balanced, then the only extra effort needed for team PvP is to simply enable it. Obviously more support is possible, but it's not requisite.
No, just no. There isn't a single game in existence that follows your "easy to see" rule. Balance always becomes incredibly complicated when you simply start shoving in multipliers such as "triple the players on each side" in.
5zigen: Fascinating. How about: PvP implies player verses player balancing at the expensive of PvM balancing which implies waste of my time game. No? Thought out input is generally preferable to witty one-liners when you're on a forum.
1 liners get read. thought out replies get tldr.
PvP doesn't imply anything. In fact by the same argument then D2 has team PvP and this whole "want" isn't really justified. There's already plenty of incentive to do Group PvP, with group buffs like BO, Fanat, Convic, ETC.
If you're going to ask specifically for group PvP to be more accommodated.
Theres only 2 more things you can really want in terms of team pvp, and thats Team PvP matchmaking / ladders and team pvp balancing. And the former implies the inclusion of the latter.
And I do think that PvP inclusion in terms of pvp matchmaking and ranked pvp and faux e-sports does degrade the PvM game, though hopefully it doesnt turn it into a waste of time for me like WoW.
No, just no. There isn't a single game in existence that follows your "easy to see" rule.
You've played every game in existence?
Quote:
And I do think that PvP inclusion in terms of pvp matchmaking and ranked pvp and faux e-sports does degrade the PvM game, though hopefully it doesnt turn it into a waste of time for me like WoW.
I used to think that, but for all intents and purposes, I've come to believe the PvP game is fairly seperate from the PvM game. As long as PvP is always secondary; an 'afterthought' to PvM, it's inclusion can only be a boon.
I'm not a huge proponent of team PvP (or PvP at all). But as far as including PvP goes, adding a team element to it would be a nice bolster to its sustainability and interest.
Phool: Oh, quite. I don't mean to assert that Team PvP would be balanced; simply that as far as options go, all you can lose by its inclusion in a possibly unbalanced form is the opportunity to play Team PvP. But no doubt it would be patched later to be more balanced - when more important PvM issues have been solved.
As far as people not enjoying or playing something that's unbalanced to begin with - a bit of a nonsensical argument since you need only look at any patch version of Diablo 1 or 2, LoD, heck take a gander at Counter Strike's myriad of patches and balances and rebalances. There's also DotA and Age of Empires 2 (I miss the Teutons). People certainly have fun by finding out the quirks of the system and exploiting them.
Do I think Team PvP should be balanced eventually? Yes. Do I think team PvP should be included perfectly balanced or not at all? Certainly not. This applies as much to 1v1 PvP, too.
And so, I my argument falls back to what Phool says: simply enable team PvP in a way that's obvious to the mainstream, and let the pieces sort themselves out. It won't interact with 1v1 PvP (as long as scaling or checks are used, or no team balancing at all is used) or PvM, so what's to lose?
Tangent: Thinking about it, I think I can see how team PvP is technically possible in Diablo 2. I don't see how it's possible with team benefits like auras and healing, though?
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