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To give the posters some backgrounds about this discussion, I will add a few quotes from an experienced telehammerdin [Module88].
Quote:
Originally Posted by Module88
Slow missile slows the attacks 50%. How can you justify, at ALL, that their attacks are as fast and accurate when tornadoes are unpredictable and hammers fly in a set zone at a set speed (unless slowed). Again, hammerdin's have to teleport at the 10 position if they HOPE to get a hit (unless the opponent lags or is otherwise stupid or slow). Any other position offers one second where the necro can teleport out and peg you from long distances.
Oh, and being a reasonably well known and very experienced dueler, I think I know what I'm talking about.
Responding to this:
Hammer can’t be slowed. With namelock tele/hammer, you don’t need to position at 10 O’clock or whatever to hit. I think tele/hammer is pin-point attack which can be sent exactly to any point on the screen. This attack is quite powerful from range, considering the hammer damage. However, like most attacks in the game (except foh), tele/hammer can be dodged if you opponent is fast enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Module88
Pin point attack is what I'm trying to disprove here. That refers to a near 100% chance to hit, regardless of where the opponent moves. You can't possibly use your last sentence to defend yourself. If you dodge any missile attack before it is cast you will miss with everything. Hammers are not pin point weapons, and unless you can somehow miraculously click on your opponent every single time to cast a hammer (and that assumes he doesn't dodge as you teleport) then you will miss a good percentage of the time. If hammers truly are pin point weapons, then why is the hit/hammer ratio very low?
This is a derail from our original discussion, quote#1. But anyways, does “pin point” mean “near autohit”?
IMO, “pin point” is nowhere near the meaning of “autohit” if your opponent can dodge.
hammer takes the full casting time to make the hammer appear... it actually starts a bit to the right of the pally, passes thru the pally, then becomes visible when it exits out the left/upper shoulder area. but it DOES take the entire 9 frames (or whatever ur cast rate is) to actually happen. it looks like it pops out faster than the casting time because the pally's arm raises are a bit late and the hammer seems to hit before even appearing.
thats why namelock hammer hits instantly btw, cause it has no travel time at all as it first passes (invisible) thru the paladin and whoever is unlucky enough to be teleported on top of at that instant
tele spends four frames to arrive regardless of how fast or slow the casting side is.
so the person being targeted by a hammerdin has exactly 4+9 frames to get his *** out of there b4 getting owned, since the hammer has no travel time.
to sbc.. 13 is shorter than 2 casting of anything, so yes if someone stayed around to shoot and/or tele-ed after shooting, or had a slow tele, and u didnt hit recover, they'd get screwed. however if the guy just ran on foot downwards, or wwed away, ur hammerdin would not be able to hit them using namelock.
hammer doesnt immediately appear after casting like you said... otherwise, that means anyone would have 4 frames to get out of a hammerdin's way from the tele-arrival time, and thats impossible
anyway, in hammerdin vs barb duels where engima use is allowed, the barb has a number of things besides ww to force the pally into having to charge / tele at you. those include the throwing of warcry knives, a gut siphon bow, trang set belt + helmet + 2 spikes on switch instead of wc knives (since the extra health wont get u an extra hammer hit), using throwable dual axes to ww, etc... and all of the physical attacks carry ranged open wounds (bout 250 damage on a 85ishbarb). these arent actually used to do most of the damage but are used to force the hammerdin to go offensive when otherwise the hammerdin just teles around/spams hammers waiting for the barb to chase.
considering neither me nor eric have been beat at very good ratios by any telehammerdins, invis hammers are the only thing that are really a threat, and those are only a huge threat in running duels. i fought roadtomadness in running-only duels and did get beat a bunch of times due to him being able to use charge and get away indefinately and create invisible hammers; however, i did win a couple times using desynced ww and the warcry knives method. no idea what engima- allowedness would have done, but that woulda gotten rid of the majority of the invisible hammers, so im thinking it would be easier.
however, your comment of "teleporting on the same screen laying hammers" does not work vs any sort of decent barb, and remind yourself that your on ladder, and barb max/ar/life charms are hard to get there, so consquently non of the serious barb pvpers arre on ladder and even if they were, they would be pretty bad due to gear constraints
i'm pretty sure he did win a couple against you but he lost a lot more.
nope. the last duel he did desynch well and it ended in a simultaneous kill with me dying first. he mighta also killed me once when i dropped in mid-duel, can't remember if that was blobs or eric. guess that should count as two wins for barb :lol:
hammer takes the full casting time to make the hammer appear... it actually starts a bit to the right of the pally, passes thru the pally, then becomes visible when it exits out the left/upper shoulder area. but it DOES take the entire 9 frames (or whatever ur cast rate is) to actually happen. it looks like it pops out faster than the casting time because the pally's arm raises are a bit late and the hammer seems to hit before even appearing.
thats why namelock hammer hits instantly btw, cause it has no travel time at all as it first passes (invisible) thru the paladin and whoever is unlucky enough to be teleported on top of at that instant
tele spends four frames to arrive regardless of how fast or slow the casting side is.
so the person being targeted by a hammerdin has exactly 4+9 frames to get his *** out of there b4 getting owned, since the hammer has no travel time.
to sbc.. 13 is shorter than 2 casting of anything, so yes if someone stayed around to shoot and/or tele-ed after shooting, or had a slow tele, and u didnt hit recover, they'd get screwed. however if the guy just ran on foot downwards, or wwed away, ur hammerdin would not be able to hit them using namelock.
hammer doesnt immediately appear after casting like you said... otherwise, that means anyone would have 4 frames to get out of a hammerdin's way from the tele-arrival time, and thats impossible
anyway, in hammerdin vs barb duels where engima use is allowed, the barb has a number of things besides ww to force the pally into having to charge / tele at you. those include the throwing of warcry knives, a gut siphon bow, trang set belt + helmet + 2 spikes on switch instead of wc knives (since the extra health wont get u an extra hammer hit), using throwable dual axes to ww, etc... and all of the physical attacks carry ranged open wounds (bout 250 damage on a 85ishbarb). these arent actually used to do most of the damage but are used to force the hammerdin to go offensive when otherwise the hammerdin just teles around/spams hammers waiting for the barb to chase.
considering neither me nor eric have been beat at very good ratios by any telehammerdins, invis hammers are the only thing that are really a threat, and those are only a huge threat in running duels. i fought roadtomadness in running-only duels and did get beat a bunch of times due to him being able to use charge and get away indefinately and create invisible hammers; however, i did win a couple times using desynced ww and the warcry knives method. no idea what engima- allowedness would have done, but that woulda gotten rid of the majority of the invisible hammers, so im thinking it would be easier.
however, your comment of "teleporting on the same screen laying hammers" does not work vs any sort of decent barb, and remind yourself that your on ladder, and barb max/ar/life charms are hard to get there, so consquently non of the serious barb pvpers arre on ladder and even if they were, they would be pretty bad due to gear constraints
Thanks for the detailed information on teleports.
There are some serious barbs on ladder. They don't have 40 3/20/20s, but they have 10/7x/3x gcs, 6/4x/3x lcs. With 10 wc gcs + gears prebuffs, my friends' barbs have over 6k life at level 88 and 90 . IMO, the extra 800 or so from the 40 3/20/20s compared to the GCs, SCs, LCs mixture, won't help that much vs 14.5K hammer.
BTW, by allowing enigma, it will be all-out battle in gear in such. This will allow the hammerdin to have 4.5-5k life (bo+oak). Keep this in mind.
yea as long as the heart of oak isnt in nightmare and is physical immune
well engima doesnt really belong in the same category as "BM" as using charges.... otherwise the barb or zon could just get a gavel with amp charges and kill anything in two hits or less
fugitivealien : dunnno if its "simultaneus" i think i wwed and killed u and then walked into a hammer that didnt disspear yet, but whatever, hey i wana fight u again ur
yea as long as the heart of oak isnt in nightmare and is physical immune
well engima doesnt really belong in the same category as "BM" as using charges.... otherwise the barb or zon could just get a gavel with amp charges and kill anything in two hits or less
fugitivealien : dunnno if its "simultaneus" i think i wwed and killed u and then walked into a hammer that didnt disspear yet, but whatever, hey i wana fight u again ur
*ppick right
or *ppick1
All duels are in hell. Nightmare duels are weak.
It's not BM if both players can use and benefit (add more life) from it. And btw, besides the necros themselves using their curses, any other chars using curses on pally is a joke because of cleansing.
To give the posters some backgrounds about this discussion, I will add a few quotes from an experienced telehammerdin [Module88].
Responding to this:
Hammer can’t be slowed. With namelock tele/hammer, you don’t need to position at 10 O’clock or whatever to hit. I think tele/hammer is pin-point attack which can be sent exactly to any point on the screen. This attack is quite powerful from range, considering the hammer damage. However, like most attacks in the game (except foh), tele/hammer can be dodged if you opponent is fast enough.
Funny, I could have sworn you said something along the lines of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBC
I should stop trying to explain to you about tele/attack (hammer or tornado). Here is one last time: for tele/hammer, the hammer hits immediately as you cast it. You should go ask other ppls on this forum to convince yourself before saying that you are experienced telehammerdin dueler.
btw, hammers cannot be slowed. Hammers are inaccurate and random once they start flying. But tele/hammer attack is pin-point accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBC
This is a derail from our original discussion, quote#1. But anyways, does “pin point” mean “near autohit”?
IMO, “pin point” is nowhere near the meaning of “autohit” if your opponent can dodge.
Any input about telehammerdin would be welcomed.
Now remember, autohit is the term you used, not me. But remember, if pin point is truly what we are talking about, every attack is pin point. Click one yard away on your screen and every attack will go there. Therefore, there is no further need to discuss pin point at all, since your definition applies to every attack. Sure, your hammer will hit your opponent if you teleport on to them and they stand still. So I just conclude with two statements from you.
"However, like most attacks in the game (except foh), tele/hammer can be dodged if you opponent is fast enough."
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