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Ever since 1.10 came out, there's been two sides arguing over the usage of off-class skills and aura stacking. It seems that it has become commonplace in pubbies (though anything that is powerful always does) and even many dueling leagues, clans etc. But there are also a lot of people that oppose it because of the inherent balance issues, such as CH and possibly the open duelers.
Im sure we've all heard the argument of unbalancing PvP vs. the argument of "it's in the game so deal with it," but I think it would be interesting to see just how many people here side with each argument, which is why Im making this poll.
When 1.10 first came out, I was against the off-class skills, particularily teleport. Then I gave in to it and have dueled quite a bit using these skills. Right now I am undecided on it all. With these skills, necros seem to be the top class, at least as much as zons were in 1.09. Though from what Ive seen of non-teleporting duels, it seems pallys would take this crown from the necro were these items abolished, and Im not entirely sure this would make things more balanced, especially with charge upgraded so much
I would add more off char skills. Some makes some builds way too powerful (mainly tele and BO), but they also make some builds able to compete and adds more builds. For example, ZealBarb, no one thinks that's overpowered. Variety is what makes PvP fun.
Getting rid of Tele and BO would be fine. Those are the worst ones. Or should I say those are worst because of some BM-people.
I'd add more; you can always -not- use them. It's just more options.
Not true. If you don't use oskills, you're frequently at a disadvantage when faced with people who do. It's like saying that you don't have to wear equipment or use charms when dueling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Sin Nombre
I would add more off char skills. Some makes some builds way too powerful (mainly tele and BO), but they also make some builds able to compete and adds more builds. For example, ZealBarb, no one thinks that's overpowered. Variety is what makes PvP fun.
Getting rid of Tele and BO would be fine. Those are the worst ones. Or should I say those are worst because of some BM-people.
The problem is, oskills do not increase variety. Instead, they decrease it.
The problem is, oskills come mostly in two packages: those that are useless in PvP, and those that are too good. For example, Wolfhowl allows a Barbarian to turn into a wolf and use Feral Rage, but who uses it? Likewise, who would want to build a ZealBarb with Whirlwind available and without access to the Sacrifice synergy? In contrast, skills like Teleport and BO are so good that almost everyone dueling is using them. That decreases variety; all of a sudden, all characters are using mostly the same skills and strategies. That's not good.
Here is my argument against off-class skills:
Quote:
sirlin.net (a site on game design) states:
"A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable—especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.
That was quite a mouthful. It basically means that game doesn’t degenerate down to a very small number of real options. This is a pretty broad definition since it encompasses the concept of “brokenness” as well. If, in chess, only pawns were used in tournament play (if pawns were so good as to be “broken”), I would say the game lacks balance, even though both players start with the same pieces. Another point of contention might be my use of the phrase “large number” rather than “large percentage” of viable options."
Most Off-class Skills violate that in the following ways:
1) Skills are frequently mainstays of the class (Teleport for sorcs, BO for barbs). By giving the skill to everyone, the class with that skill gets a significant nerf, as it is no longer the sole beneficiary of what the skill can provide.
2) Off-class skills stifle the viability of many classes. For example, playing a melee character would be near impossible if a ranged character plays extremely defensively with teleport, frequently keeping the melee character off of the screen. In the same token, the teleport could be used to force a shoot-out, killing anything that cannot tank or deal great deals of damage quickly. Battle Orders requires a character to use only one of the weapon switch slots, which destroys characters that use both weapon switches (hybrid caster/fighter, for example, that has both caster weapons/shield and fighter weapons/shield) and characters that don't have near-1-hit kill attacks (as a 1 hit kill attack will still kill someone with BO).
To address the issue that characters already have these skills:
a) One class having these skills is a lot better than all classes getting these skills.
b) The class that has the skill may be unable to use them in the most beneficial way. Sorceresses' spells have only a little more than 1 screen's range, and forcing a shoot-out at point blank range is generally not a good idea for them. Additionally, Barbarians tend to have a great deal of life already, and their other skills are not good enough to make that extra life and mana unfair (Whirlwind still requires careful timing AND aiming, unlike Charge, Bone Spirit, etc).
3) Usage of off-class skills makes many classes inferior versions of other classes. For example, if off-class skills are allowed, a Bowazon basically becomes a Necromancer without the mana to teleport. A Barbarian becomes a Paladin that requires more skill to play.
4) Usage of off-class skills decreases the effect of play skill. It is much harder to avoid an incoming Barbarian by running than it is by Teleporting.
5) Usage of off-class skills reduces diversity. Skills make the character, and using the same skills on different characters makes them more similar to each other.
6) Usage of off-class skills frequently requires no trade-off. Enigma comes with +2 skills, 45% run/walk, and a sick amount of Strength. Call to Arms uses a weapon switch. For many characters, these are not harsh at all.
There is, however, a rare third type of oskills: the balanced kind. These oskills manage to preserve class identity, and are often used as an oskill in ways differing from the way the skill is used. I only have one example: Whirlwind. Due to its class restrictions (Assassin only) and the low skill level, oskill Whirlwind is used in a dramatically different way than Whirlwind. Barbarians use Whirlwind to deal massive physical damage. In contrast, Assassins use Whirlwind to activate poison and Open Wounds. This, in effect, means that Chaos gives Assassins a whole different skill than what Barbarians get, increasing (rather than decreasing) variety and not upsetting balance.
You could also agree on that. But there's no point in that. You can just agree with your opponent to take off the o-class skill things? :scratch:
True, most honorable and respectable duelers will do that. But in pubby games, most of them are not. If you go into a public dueling game and ask everyone whos using enigma and cta to take them off, will they listen? Most of them won't, but some will. If 4 out of the other 7 people take off the oskill items, 3 still have them on. Therefore, 3 characters may have superior to the others. Or some may take them off, but as soon as you get outside, they might put them back on. You always get the ignorant people that interrupt a duel by attacking either party or both. Oskill items aide them in that because they can easily tele to you after they use their bo and just start wailing/casting on the dueler(s). Then if they feel threatened, they'll tele away. If you two had agreed to not wear your oskill items, then you two are at a disadvantage unless you're smart enough to leave it in your inventory.
The problem is, oskills do not increase variety. Instead, they decrease it.
The problem is, oskills come mostly in two packages: those that are useless in PvP, and those that are too good. For example, Wolfhowl allows a Barbarian to turn into a wolf and use Feral Rage, but who uses it? Likewise, who would want to build a ZealBarb with Whirlwind available and without access to the Sacrifice synergy? In contrast, skills like Teleport and BO are so good that almost everyone dueling is using them. That decreases variety; all of a sudden, all characters are using mostly the same skills and strategies. That's not good.
Why anyone would make Zealot Pala when Hammerdin is more powerful?
I have Zealbarb, why? Because I like to try weirder builds in PvP. And there is lot of Wolfbarbs out there. You'd be amazed how powerful it is.
Like I said; Tele and BO could be get rid off.
Granted I only duel in private games and we have good people there who follows rules and are fair.
I stay in my orginal statement; off char skills increases variety.
For example, Wolfhowl allows a Barbarian to turn into a wolf and use Feral Rage, but who uses it?
Many do and that build is a very nice pvp build, u should try it.
Must agree with los here bo and tele is the bad ones, most of the rest is funny
rgds svin
What annoys me the most out of all of this is that the people that use BO, tele, stack auras (and to a lesser extent amp and lifetap), is when they cry when they lose.
My paladin has only 1 aura active like normal, except for the short manual aura stack that one gets by switching auras quickly, I don't use BO or tele, and I go out and duel with all those paladins that use all of the above.
When they lose, they start screaming, literally :
"Dude wtf stop running." If i run more than a screenlength away from them (not to town).
"GOd noob stand still" : If i ever choose to move within the same screen to attack.
"Smite is so cheap" Coming from the Doom winddruid with BO, oaksage, mercenary, and teleport.
If anyone here uses these items, do not complain and be hypocritical of whoever beats you without them. It is so annoying that they come up with the most ******** excuses just because I have a better strategy than sitting there and teleporting here and there and casting 10k hammers or 5k spear/bs...
Just makes users of those items look that much more pathetic.
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