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  1. #11
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    Two things you may also have wrong:

    First, using two Dreams doesn't make the pulse happen twice per second. The two auras stack into a single one, delivering the usual number of pulses.

    Second, Conviction doesn't affect poison resist, making Venom even less appealing.

    In my opinion, Kicksins have enough damage sources that make dual-dreams a waste, and here's why:

    You will have terrible resists without using a LOT of resist gear everywhere else.

    99% of the time, a Kicksin will typically use a Stormshield. Aside from the massive resist potential by putting an Um in such a beastly shield, you are also missing out on a whopping 35% DR.

    With dual-Dreams, if I remember correctly, you will add a maximum of around 2.4k damage to your kicks after the double-application. Which is great considering the typically low damage of Kicks in the first place. But then again, there are better and safer ways to deliver multiple sources of damage.

    The main thing to consider is comparing it to using Rift. While the Dream setup DOES give you a significant boost to your main attack, keep in mind that your main attack is only striking one opponent at a time. Considering that with a Conviction-wielding merc, you already have great damage potential with Corpse Explosion and possibly Frozen Orb, already Dream seems like an over-hyped glass-cannon build that leaves you too weak to survive long enough to target enough creatures to make the damage seem worth it.

    In my opinion, anyways. Do as you wish, it may surprise you.

    However, if doing more damage overall is your goal, I would consider instead a Rift + Nightwing's + Ormus setup instead. You will get an additional 30% or so damage to your Frozen Orb which should take it to just over 400 damage per bolt. More if you facet the Wing, Robe, and potentially your shield (though I feel an Um in a Stormshield is a better bet and not worth another +5%/-5%.)

    With that setup, you have a lvl 21 Frozen Orb that is essentially fully synergized as a Sorc would by maxing Ice Bolt. Throw on some Gore's for a bit of CB and you have a Sin that deals decent Physical damage with a bit of Crushing Blow, HUGE crowd-controlling Cold Damage, HUGE crowd-controlling Physical damage AND Fire damage enhanced by Conviction.

    Also, with that setup, you wouldn't need to max Fade at all. Stormshield + lvl 1 Fade with some item-based skill levels, a Torch/Anni if applicable and charms should cover everything you need. That would give you the option to max Venom after all (which, don't forget, ALSO gets applied twice) for an extra thousand or so damage per second.

    Counting the little bit of lightning damage from traps, this gives you 100% spectral hit as you will deal all six types of damage, the main ones being Fire, Cold and Physical with Poison and Lightning to help. Magic is technically there, but negligibly so.

    From my experiences, Dreams are ALMOST only worth it on Paladins and Sorceresses. However, if you have enough charms and other gear to cover the huge DR% and resist loss by using Dreams instead of Stormshield and Kira's/Crown of Ages/Etc and it is fun for you, DO IT.

  2. #12
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    Thanks Psycho, just what I was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    Two things you may also have wrong:

    First, using two Dreams doesn't make the pulse happen twice per second. The two auras stack into a single one, delivering the usual number of pulses.
    I was under the impression that by wearing two pieces of pulse damage gear that it actually applies the slvl 30 damage twice every 2 seconds. Can someone confirm or deny this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    Second, Conviction doesn't affect poison resist, making Venom even less appealing.
    I actually did factor that in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    In my opinion, Kicksins have enough damage sources that make dual-dreams a waste, and here's why:

    You will have terrible resists without using a LOT of resist gear everywhere else.

    99% of the time, a Kicksin will typically use a Stormshield. Aside from the massive resist potential by putting an Um in such a beastly shield, you are also missing out on a whopping 35% DR.
    On resists I'm actually looking pretty darn good. Dreams give you +5-20 each, Mara's +20-30, Anni/Torch +40-80, and Fade gives me +69. Fade also gives me 30% DR and 15% DR comes from Dungo's, so I'm just shy of the cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    With dual-Dreams, if I remember correctly, you will add a maximum of around 2.4k damage to your kicks after the double-application. Which is great considering the typically low damage of Kicks in the first place. But then again, there are better and safer ways to deliver multiple sources of damage.
    Yea, 2.4Kish. I'm not sure what double-application you're referring too. +% Lightning Skill would count twice, but I dropped all of that gear. What other sources of damage do you mean? As far as off-weapon, I can't find anything that compares accept a ton of elemental damage charms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    The main thing to consider is comparing it to using Rift. While the Dream setup DOES give you a significant boost to your main attack, keep in mind that your main attack is only striking one opponent at a time. Considering that with a Conviction-wielding merc, you already have great damage potential with Corpse Explosion and possibly Frozen Orb, already Dream seems like an over-hyped glass-cannon build that leaves you too weak to survive long enough to target enough creatures to make the damage seem worth it.

    In my opinion, anyways. Do as you wish, it may surprise you.
    I actually did end up getting surprised. I originally thought the 6 socket PB with Dreams would amp up the damage. It did. But then I started messing with Rift and saw the damage it could unleash on a crowd (769-3581 ave!). But then Pyro turned me on to Stormlash. Stormlash harmonizes with Corpse Explosion perfectly. In a four or less player game, you're pretty much guaranteed to take down an entire pack after killing just one baddy because they're all at half life. It's hard to compare Rift with Stormlash, but in practice Stormlash seems to be so much more potent. The CB, IAS, and LD are great bonuses. In addition, Stormlash gives you corpse galore. Rift shatters a lot of them.

    Secondly, I think you're underestimating her ruggedness. The Dreams are actually decent pieces of defensive gear as well (CtC Confuse, Def, Resists, & Life). The Guardian Angel really pulls it all together, but the stats speak for themselves:
    45% PDR
    90% Resist All
    10K Def
    3K Life
    75% Block
    70% FHR (5 frame)
    30% FBR (4 frame)
    Really quickly spawning Life Tap.
    CtC Confuse for crowd control

    That kind of defense isn't matched by many characters at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    However, if doing more damage overall is your goal, I would consider instead a Rift + Nightwing's + Ormus setup instead. You will get an additional 30% or so damage to your Frozen Orb which should take it to just over 400 damage per bolt. More if you facet the Wing, Robe, and potentially your shield (though I feel an Um in a Stormshield is a better bet and not worth another +5%/-5%.)

    With that setup, you have a lvl 21 Frozen Orb that is essentially fully synergized as a Sorc would by maxing Ice Bolt. Throw on some Gore's for a bit of CB and you have a Sin that deals decent Physical damage with a bit of Crushing Blow, HUGE crowd-controlling Cold Damage, HUGE crowd-controlling Physical damage AND Fire damage enhanced by Conviction.
    That's an interesting set-up. I might try that out. Another alternative might be a Jeweler's Armor of Whatever over Ormus's Robes, if you can afford some nice Facets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    Also, with that setup, you wouldn't need to max Fade at all. Stormshield + lvl 1 Fade with some item-based skill levels, a Torch/Anni if applicable and charms should cover everything you need. That would give you the option to max Venom after all (which, don't forget, ALSO gets applied twice) for an extra thousand or so damage per second.
    What do you mean it gets applied twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    Counting the little bit of lightning damage from traps, this gives you 100% spectral hit as you will deal all six types of damage, the main ones being Fire, Cold and Physical with Poison and Lightning to help. Magic is technically there, but negligibly so.

    From my experiences, Dreams are ALMOST only worth it on Paladins and Sorceresses. However, if you have enough charms and other gear to cover the huge DR% and resist loss by using Dreams instead of Stormshield and Kira's/Crown of Ages/Etc and it is fun for you, DO IT.
    Word. Thanks for your comments.

  3. #13
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    My mistake, I was thinking of the mastery at the time. I have blood in my THC system.

    If it does apply two pulses, then it must do them at the same time because I have never noticed a more-often-than-usual amount of pulses coming from two Dreams.

    I am actually surprised at your resist setup as well. Certainly charms are pulling some weight?

    However, I HAVE found a SEVERE hole in your kill strategy...

    Mara's...

    Dracul's...

    Fade...

    You have such little speed. I am sure you are hitting a fairly decent breakpoint with your kicks. But literally ALL of your speed is based on the speed of Stormlash.

    In my opinion, Crescent Moon in a phase blade would outperform Stormlash by a mile. While you are losing some CB, you retain the Static Field (in fact, you get a wider radius) and get a much better boost to the Lightning Damage. I find this more important mainly when it comes to facing down monsters that have had their lightning immunity broken. They will still have a hefty lightning resist even with a bunch of facets. The extra -35% resist will really help your damage versus that fairly common situation. With Gore's, you retain a still-decent amount of CB.

    But I really can't get off the speed issue here. You should be a good two or more breakpoints behind on your kick speed, which when it comes to a lot, a little, or any sort of damage, is possibly the most important factor.

    That is a good point regarding the shattering corpses. But I found that so long as you have a corpse here and there, especially with Conviction nearby, you only need a small chunk of them anyways.

    With Venom, again I was thinking of mastery damage. You'd have to be wearing facets, Death's Web or the like for that to be a thing. Again, I had to quit my love leaf so things are frazzled ha ha.

    Like I said, if it sounds fun and you stay alive, go for it. I just feel the speed could be a big issue, and you would have better crowd control with a Rift. Other than that, this does appear to be a clear winner regarding killing bosses. I would be interested to see how it performs in Uber Tristram.

    I am also dying to know how you got your defense that high...
    Last edited by Psychonautical; 04-12-2013 at 03:44.

  4. #14
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    The speed actually is just fine. It's 3/9. That's 3/3/3/3/9 frames for a total of 21 frames per 5 kicks. If I were to max it out with BoS, or slap on 65 IAS, I'd hit 3/7, but that's 19 frames per 5 kicks. That's just 10% faster. I considered doing this, but the defensive benefits of Fade much outweigh 10% more hits.

    Crescent Moon offers a marginally higher level SF, but at less than half the proc rate. That's what's important. The -35% ELR is a good mod. But Stormlash has CB, LD, and a socket (20 more CB). I find that getting the SF to hit a couple of times before the first monsters dies has a dramatic improvement on the corpse exploding ridiculousness.

    On a side note, it seems that Kicksins are already setup to ravage Ubers. TweedleD and TweedleB are easy enough, and require no adjustments. The only thing you'd have to do is stack up some resists for TweedleM. The Dreams can go since he's immune to Lightning anyway. Slap on a Um'd Kira's and Sanctuary and you should be golden.

    If you wanted a little more. A few cheapo's that could help:
    2xUpped GoblinToe (10 more CB)
    2xSteel GC's (~250 AR)
    Demonlimb Prebuff (218% AR)

    All that seems to cost a pittance compared to crazy options like LW. Just keep DT on left click and MB on right click and do your worst. If Fazil kicks it, you'll be fine. With 68-78 CB & SF, you'll chew him down right quick. Once he's dead you can go after the other two with either gear setup.

    Edit: I'm starting to be really surprised at how much nay-saying I've seen past & present to the whole Dual Dream Kick idea and from very reputable types, too (and a thank you to those encouraging). But it just seems to make an incredible amount of sense to me. Low, fast attacks benefit from elemental damage. Dreams effectively double+ your DT damage. CB is great, but at the low end you need something to finish them off. I calculated an example. When I've kicked a monster 20 times (3.3 secs, ~60K life monster), SF has done about 11.7K damage, CB has done about 12.6K damage, Boots have done about 11.7K damage, and my Dreams have done about 24.6K damage!
    Last edited by Clervis; 04-12-2013 at 20:04.

  5. #15
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    It sounds like a pretty decent idea in that case. Forget my naysaying. Indeed, go for it!

    While the speed of the kicks is what really makes this damage output shine, I am curious as to what other builds may benefit from the dual-Dream setup since Paladins and Sorceresses have pretty much dominated the market. Fury Druid? Lightning Javazon?

    Hell, a Whirlwind Barbarian?

    O_O

  6. #16
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    Well, of course, conventional knowledge was that Dreams were only good for Paladins and Sorcs for their synergies/masteries. It works for the kicksin because she has an attack that focuses on speed almost entirely rather than how hard she can hit. In fact, it more the case that she just can't get significant damage from anything else. Amplifying her damage with Might, Concentrate, Fort, & Phoenix tops out at about 1.5K damage.....lame. That's because her boots are comparable to using a Lightsabre without the elemental damage.

    As far as other builds using it, I'm not sure. They'd have to do lots of small damage. A strafezon comes to mind, but then....Throwers w/pierce maybe, but they're generally underpowered builds in general.

  7. #17
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    As far as very powerful builds go, you're probably right in beeing limited to melee sorcs, paladins and the occasional kicker, as most other powerful ones have far better options. If you can afford it though, dual dreams could be very useful on a wide range of novelty builds where the extra lightning damage helps out handling imunes to your main type of damage or opens other gear options.

  8. #18

    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    Edit: I'm starting to be really surprised at how much nay-saying I've seen past & present to the whole Dual Dream Kick idea and from very reputable types, too (and a thank you to those encouraging). But it just seems to make an incredible amount of sense to me. Low, fast attacks benefit from elemental damage. Dreams effectively double+ your DT damage. CB is great, but at the low end you need something to finish them off. I calculated an example. When I've kicked a monster 20 times (3.3 secs, ~60K life monster), SF has done about 11.7K damage, CB has done about 12.6K damage, Boots have done about 11.7K damage, and my Dreams have done about 24.6K damage!
    No nay-saying from this corner. Make it happen, it sounds like it would work, you put it through all the calculations, so why not right? I would do it myself but Jah runes just don't come around that often in HC SP. Its on my list of things to make though!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivi View Post
    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #19
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    Quote Originally Posted by khuzgan View Post
    If you can afford it though, dual dreams could be very useful on a wide range of novelty builds where the extra lightning damage helps out handling imunes to your main type of damage or opens other gear options.
    I agree entirely, dreams could open up options for these niche builds. Another such option that seems to have mostly died off since 1.09 is the benefit of elemental damage charms. Individually they seem puny, and even an inventory of them won't revolutionize your build, but they can singlehandedly cover a vulnerability if you're character is limited in types or amount of damage. Furthermore, the search for these charms brings an indefiniteness to your endgame. I'm in the process of rolling small charms for the flaming/shocking prefix and each one makes my build a little more potent.

  10. #20
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    Re: Dreaming Kicksin?

    Alright, I started my Kicksin. I've got some lofty goals. I want to achieve the following:

    2.5K life
    500 average fire damage (charms)
    800 average phys damage
    68 CB
    3/3/3/9 attack rate
    10K Defense
    75% block
    45% PDR
    90% resist all
    4-frame block
    5-frame hit recovery

    How?

    Stats:
    196 Str
    ~220 Dex
    ~400 Vit

    Skills (106 total):
    18 DTalon
    18 Fire Blast
    20 Lightning Sentry
    20 Death Sentry
    20 Fade
    1 DFlight
    1 Cloak of Shadows
    1 Mind Blast
    7 Pre-reqs

    Equipment:
    Stormlash
    Upped Guardian Angel (Cham)
    Dream Corona
    Dream Ward
    Dracul's Grasp
    Verdungo's
    Upped Gore Riders
    2xMana Leech Rare Rings
    Anni/Torch
    23 Flaming Small Charms
    CtA/Spirit Switch

    Merc:
    Infinity
    Eth Upped GA (Um)
    Eth Upped Vamp Gaze (Um)

    That's the plan anyway. The tricky part will be acquiring those Flaming small charms. The plan is to get 500 fire damage. That can be done in 16 small charms on average. But it'll take a lot of Baal charm rolling.

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