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  1. #1
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    Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Surely, the 350% damage to demons on LoH can't work as it implies. I read somewhere that it ends up being only about 60% ed to demons. Can anyone confirm?

    Second question: would a glass cannon bowazon be better off with 60% ed Steelrend (with 10% CB) instead of LoH because rends will boost all damage? Yes, I know it has a high str req, but I'm using wf (134 str req), and with a perfect 20 str bonus on rends, you only need 31 more str to wear it.

  2. #2
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    I don't recall the exact details, so take this with a grain of salt, but a simple summary is that enhanced damage % that's actually on a weapon is quite different from enhanced damage % from other sources (i.e. skills, non-weapon items, %ED Demons or Undead, etc.). And point for point, the on-weapon ED% is quite a bit more significant to your final damage numbers.

    So, if I had to guess, the statement that 350% ED from LoH is actually 60% ED is probably based on assuming 350% off-weapon ED is equivalent to 60% on-weapon ED... or something like that. I can't state how accurate that 350 -> 60 comparison actually is without tracking down a more detailed breakdown of damage formulas.

    Of course, Steelrend's ED% is off-weapon ED%, just like LoH. So it would also be equivalent to a much smaller on-weapon ED% - although you're correct that it would apply to all types of monsters.


    As for whether you should use Steelrends, I think it's a justifiable choice paired with a Windforce, especially if you don't need additional IAS from your gloves and don't have any other source of Crushing Blow. But for many builds and most of the time, I'd probably work around using LoH for gloves and get my Crushing Blow & other off-weapon ED% from elsewhere.

  3. #3
    IncGamers Member Archone's Avatar
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Ive had this discussion plenty of times. And every god snuffs time, I swap Steelrends for LoH, I do a ton more dmg vs demons. (All act bosses are demons btw)
    So I can surely say that you get alot more dmg than 60% additional, vs demons.

    Ofc, the cb on steelrends, could make it more valid on a bowazon. Instead of LoH. Mind that LoH also has 20IAS.
    Cb is awesome for bowazons, but they wont get the full %, I think its more like a 1/3 or something like that, for ranged attacks. Cant remember.

    And besides that, Steelrends has a very high str req. And ed is isnt as important as IAS; and base dmg for a Bowazon.



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  4. #4
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archone View Post
    Cb is awesome for bowazons, but they wont get the full %, I think its more like a 1/3 or something like that, for ranged attacks. Cant remember.
    I forgot this point, but it's important... CB isn't as effective when it's from a ranged attack compared to a melee attack (though I do think it's 1/2, not 1/3).

  5. #5
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Thanks, all. According to Arreat Summit, enemy health reduction with successful CB using melee is 1/4. For ranged, it's 1/8. For ranged against bosses, champs, and uniques it's 1/16. Despite these depressing numbers, the strong consensus in a thread about this (with posters crunching numbers) was that it's still worth having some CB on your bowazon, especially for bosses b/c bowas typically have a hard time whittling them down.

    I should point out that the set up I have in mind won't need the 20 IAS on gloves. But I wonder if the extra 31 str (which equals a dex loss) needed just for rends combined with the 290% dtd loss (rends provides 60) would make rends a wasted investment? Also, those Venom Lords (demon) in Hell Chaos have so much more health than the paper Storm Casters and Doom Knights.

    Archone: the problem is, though, that LoH never felt like wearing another Fort (and them some) vs demons. So it seems like the true bonus is more significant than 60 as you say, but nowhere near as big as what the number 350 suggests. Somewhere in the middle perhaps. I mean you really notice putting Fort on.

  6. #6
    IncGamers Member Archone's Avatar
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    I thought that dtd, or dtu, worked on your final dmg. Not calculated with the base dmg, rather the final dmg after ed has been calculated.

  7. #7
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    Archone: the problem is, though, that LoH never felt like wearing another Fort (and them some) vs demons.
    Actually, it is. While it does not 'feel' like fort, extra 350ed is exactly 350ed. ED vs demons adds to the final off-weapon ED (skills, auras, str bonus etc) when facing demons. I cant remember my physical damage classes wearing anything but LoH. Great item.

  8. #8
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Alright, I'll take your word for it. Talk about overpowered; 50 fire res too. It makes the desire for crafted kb gloves seem rather silly since you're giving up all that damage.
    Last edited by stillman; 18-11-2013 at 13:19.

  9. #9

    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Crafted knock back gloves are really a pvp kind of item. There are many better ways to get knockback if you aren't using windforce for pvm.

    Lets think of it this way though, would you rather be 60% more effective against all monsters or 350% more effective against half of the monsters (half is just rough guessing it). Its a pretty easy choice in this one though, because as you said you would need 31 more strength, which results in 31 less dex. One dex while using a bow is equal to 1% off weapon ed, so by investing the strength to use the gloves you are only effectively gaining 29% ed with a perfect roll steelrend.

    Pretty much for standard pvm, Loh can't be beat.

    Also, even though it may not "feel" like another fort, the damage % added by both work the same way as off weapon, the only difference is that the fort damage is seen in the LCS while the LOH % to demons is not.
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  10. #10
    IncGamers Member helvete's Avatar
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    Re: Laying of Hands or 60 Rends?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archone View Post
    I thought that dtd, or dtu, worked on your final dmg. Not calculated with the base dmg, rather the final dmg after ed has been calculated.
    It doesn't. Damage with fort and LoH only and 100 str using an axe: weapon damage +400% (str and fort) vs all but demons, which gets 750%ED applied to them

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