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  1. #21
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    Quote Originally Posted by Gripphon View Post
    I can't run LK that fast either, however there are some players around here who can, even faster than 18 secs.

    As for 2 seconds thing, it's technique thing. When running LK, you don't use ID scrolls, they are waste of time. With them it's a lot more than 2 secs difference, I agree. However, ideal LK runner has only 2 columns of keys in inventory and everything else empty. That way you do tens of runs before you get full, you just run like maniac, pick up things. After you get full, you visit Cain, identify everything with one click, drop useless stuff, then repeat. It takes time to get full, so that one run when you will check everything wont add much to your running times.
    I found some videos on Youtube of people running Lower Kurast in ~20 seconds. They don't pick up anything. They also move on instantly from large chest drops (ones where half the stuff doesn't come up when you press alt). Is this the way people usually run? Most of my time comes from sifting through chest drops to see what's underneath. Holding alt (or space bar in my case, as I find it easier) while the items fall doesn't always do the job; sometimes you see the rune drop, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you see the orange flash by but don't see the name itself so you're then compelled to search. One time I thought I saw an Ohm flash by. I definitely saw the "O" part of its name. It was an Ort. :( The good news is I found an Ist last night before bed, so I have that going for me!

    I was using ID scrolls as an example. I don't usually use them myself but sometimes I do. But even if you brought a near-inventory full of items to Cain and he IDs them all, you still have to sift through it all and decide what to keep and what not to, and then transfer all that to your stash, make room for it, etc. It takes time. Or maybe I just have a very unsteady hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gripphon View Post
    As for your high values of runes, I can understand it. Now I don't know your case, but I will tell generally. Usually runes are very valuable to a player who don't have some key runewords, like Jah and Ber to make Enigma, Lo for Grief and such. As you make runewords, runes become less and less valuable to you. After you make everything you need, you will find runes a lot less valuable than before. With charms is the opposite. In the beginning that Enigma or Grief will mean a lot to you, but some 20 life 11 lite res won't mean that much. As you grow richer, your equipment needs become more specific. Once you make key runewords and find key items, suddenly only way to improve character is through charms. At that point charms become more and more valuable.
    Runes are without a doubt the most important thing to me at this point. My best rune word is the Call to Arms I made. Before that, I had never held anything higher than a Gul. While I was cubing I was getting excited at the prospect of actually holding a Vex and an Ohm, and contemplated keeping the Vexs because I didn't think I'd ever see one again. By the time runes and rune words lose their value to me, Diablo 4 will be out.

    Charms are good, no doubt, but they just don't have the same value to me. At the very least I can reroll them. Can't do that with runes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gripphon View Post
    Now only question is what playing style do you have. If you prefer to continually improve your characters, making them better and stronger, you will eventually get to the point when runes won't do a thing for your character, but charms will. Or some jewel. Especially because in 1.13 runes are pretty much everywhere. Ok, it's not like that for some casual player, you still must play the game to get stuff.
    I'm always looking to make my characters better, and I do have a nice assortment of charms now, but they can always be improved. But right now runes are my priority. I see what you're saying and I think it's true that eventually I'll want to look towards charms, which is why I still pick them up when I see them. I generally disregard large charms, though, unless I'm just questing or doing whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gripphon View Post
    You don't need to pick charms or anything if you are not happy with it, however you might ask yourself in the future "why the hell didn't I pick charms, now I would kill to get that and that charm or this jewel, maybe I left it on the ground... and what the hell should I do with this 2 Jahs?!" ^^
    I thought about this but after finding three Stormshields while running Mephisto (and don't really plan on using them) I would run so fast to pick up another one should it fall. You can always be richer.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoisemakerArrow View Post
    The defense ranges for Grim Helm and Bone Visage overlap, so if you have a high defense Vampire Gaze, it might have less defense after the upgrade if you roll a low defense Bone Visage. You can calculate the base defense of your Gaze by working backwards and seeing where it falls in the range of a Grim Helm. If it's on the low end, then you can upgrade without worry.
    That's interesting, I did not know that. I'll probably leave it.

    Quote Originally Posted by helvete View Post
    All unupgraded items which spawns with %ED spawns with a base defense of max+1, thus there is no such thing as a "high defense Vampire Gaze", since all of them spawn with the exact same defense (save for ethereal ones, which are also all alike).

    This even applies to the IK armor, since it has %ED as a hidden bonus.
    Ah, this explains the 252 defence of my Vampiregaze (I was kind of wondering about that). Thanks for the cool tidbit!

  2. #22
    IncGamers Member Gripphon's Avatar
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    @ Darkthrone

    I would say majority of LK runners usually pick up at least charms and jewels. I'm not sure about flawless gems, but I have a feeling many players pick and cube flawless gems too when running LK. There are some players who don't pick anything except runes, though.

    As for orange flash, I'm positive you see it every time, those flashes are pretty much obvious thing to see, so those players who pick up only runes can move away from large piles without worrying. However, technique is to teleport once with holding alt in case some rune did drop, and was just out of screen because of all items on the ground, that way you avoid missing rune for sure.

    If you are not sure about 2 seconds thing, you can always test it with run counter and see what is the difference. Even if we say difference is 4 seconds (if you are really slow in deciding what to keep from charms, making room in stash etc), it's still the same conclusion.

    For now, your priorities are runes since you don't have some key runewords. Enigma is best runeword in the game, total gamechanger for absolutely all characters except sorc. Grief deals mad damage, once you made it, you will see how fast and easy it is to kill everything in the game. CtA you have. Fortitude is great merc armor. Infinity is great. So, until you make at least those runewords, runes are indeed your most important things in the game. After that... well, we will see. Nevertheless, runes are always nice items to have.

  3. #23
    IncGamers Member helvete's Avatar
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    I never keep charms without at least one great affix, and if there's only one affix, I only keep perfects. This is because I've taken my time collecting charms (in 1.13, I was sloppy in 1.10-1.12 and learned that one should check every GC and SC which drop in hell). Same thing with jewels, but it takes longer because jewels are less obvious to me. Been looking for a 30 fire res 9dex 7fhr one like forever, and I don't even have a decent placeholder...

  4. #24
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthrone View Post
    I found some videos on Youtube of people running Lower Kurast in ~20 seconds. They don't pick up anything. They also move on instantly from large chest drops (ones where half the stuff doesn't come up when you press alt). Is this the way people usually run? Most of my time comes from sifting through chest drops to see what's underneath. Holding alt (or space bar in my case, as I find it easier) while the items fall doesn't always do the job; sometimes you see the rune drop, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you see the orange flash by but don't see the name itself so you're then compelled to search. One time I thought I saw an Ohm flash by. I definitely saw the "O" part of its name. It was an Ort. :( The good news is I found an Ist last night before bed, so I have that going for me!

    I was using ID scrolls as an example. I don't usually use them myself but sometimes I do. But even if you brought a near-inventory full of items to Cain and he IDs them all, you still have to sift through it all and decide what to keep and what not to, and then transfer all that to your stash, make room for it, etc. It takes time. Or maybe I just have a very unsteady hand.


    Runes are without a doubt the most important thing to me at this point. My best rune word is the Call to Arms I made. Before that, I had never held anything higher than a Gul. While I was cubing I was getting excited at the prospect of actually holding a Vex and an Ohm, and contemplated keeping the Vexs because I didn't think I'd ever see one again. By the time runes and rune words lose their value to me, Diablo 4 will be out.

    Charms are good, no doubt, but they just don't have the same value to me. At the very least I can reroll them. Can't do that with runes.


    I'm always looking to make my characters better, and I do have a nice assortment of charms now, but they can always be improved. But right now runes are my priority. I see what you're saying and I think it's true that eventually I'll want to look towards charms, which is why I still pick them up when I see them. I generally disregard large charms, though, unless I'm just questing or doing whatever.


    I thought about this but after finding three Stormshields while running Mephisto (and don't really plan on using them) I would run so fast to pick up another one should it fall. You can always be richer.


    That's interesting, I did not know that. I'll probably leave it.


    Ah, this explains the 252 defence of my Vampiregaze (I was kind of wondering about that). Thanks for the cool tidbit!
    Map is probably the most important part of 20s LK runs. I made a short LK guide awhile back that I think you might find useful:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd40K6ENakY

  5. #25
    IncGamers Member NoisemakerArrow's Avatar
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    Oh, right. I forgot about that. But what I said about the defense of a Gaze possibly dropping is still true - it happened to me. :(

    I always pick up everything. Rares, gems, jewels, charms. Even large charms. I also identify wands, orbs, necro heads, paladin shields, gloves and elite armours, just in case. I can't stand the thought of potentially having left something great on the ground. Yes, my run times suffer as a result, but I would suffer mental anguish if I didn't pick stuff up. I MUST know what it was!

  6. #26
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    Quote Originally Posted by Gripphon View Post
    @ Darkthrone

    I would say majority of LK runners usually pick up at least charms and jewels. I'm not sure about flawless gems, but I have a feeling many players pick and cube flawless gems too when running LK. There are some players who don't pick anything except runes, though.

    As for orange flash, I'm positive you see it every time, those flashes are pretty much obvious thing to see, so those players who pick up only runes can move away from large piles without worrying. However, technique is to teleport once with holding alt in case some rune did drop, and was just out of screen because of all items on the ground, that way you avoid missing rune for sure.

    If you are not sure about 2 seconds thing, you can always test it with run counter and see what is the difference. Even if we say difference is 4 seconds (if you are really slow in deciding what to keep from charms, making room in stash etc), it's still the same conclusion.

    For now, your priorities are runes since you don't have some key runewords. Enigma is best runeword in the game, total gamechanger for absolutely all characters except sorc. Grief deals mad damage, once you made it, you will see how fast and easy it is to kill everything in the game. CtA you have. Fortitude is great merc armor. Infinity is great. So, until you make at least those runewords, runes are indeed your most important things in the game. After that... well, we will see. Nevertheless, runes are always nice items to have.
    I can confirm on two occasions that I have not seen the orange flash. They weren't anything special (Ort and Shael), so it was no big deal, but it makes me wonder if I have missed anything in the past. I keep the space bar pressed down almost the entire run, so I have it pressed before I ever pop the chest. This is actually kind of annoying with telekinesis because for whatever reason, sometimes you have to click several times on the chest or weapons rack for it to pop, but it will always pop on the first click if you don't have the "show items" key pressed. Wonder why that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazliare View Post
    Map is probably the most important part of 20s LK runs. I made a short LK guide awhile back that I think you might find useful:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd40K6ENakY
    Great video! Almost everything I find on Youtube has annoying music in the background as they teleport around doing stuff with terrible quality. You should make more videos. The Enter + H key sequence is a great little trick, but as a user of a Dvorak keyboard, it forces me to take my right hand off my mouse which slows me down anyway unfortunately :(.

    My map is pretty similar to yours. I'll post a picture of it later tonight if I remember. I can hit ~20 seconds on good runs, though I haven't formally timed them. You seem to get quite lucky with the number of monsters that don't spawn inside the huts. For me it seems like at least 50% of the time there are monsters standing right next to the chests, often times they're boss packs. I've died several times trying to pick up charms and whatnot, or simply just looking through the drops. Telekinesis mitigates that most of the time, but unfortunately it cannot pick up charms, jewels, or runes.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoisemakerArrow View Post
    I always pick up everything. Rares, gems, jewels, charms. Even large charms. I also identify wands, orbs, necro heads, paladin shields, gloves and elite armours, just in case. I can't stand the thought of potentially having left something great on the ground. Yes, my run times suffer as a result, but I would suffer mental anguish if I didn't pick stuff up. I MUST know what it was!
    I used to be like that as well, but right now I kind of have tunnel vision with runes, plus I don't have any interest in playing half the character classes so a lot of the items that drop I have no interest in checking out. That's not to say I won't pick up something that's known to be desired, but a rare or magical item during a Lower Kurast run? No chance.

  7. #27
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    Darkthrone: I think the point that others are trying to make is that if you don't pick things up and id them, you won't know what they are. It's the same case in Travincal, or level 85 areas, or anything really. That's the fundamental mechanic of Diablo 2.. except for runes of course, which you do know what they are without picking up and id'ing them.. It is really up to you, what you want to pick up and id, and what not to.

    I share your dislike of having items spam onto the ground until you can't see anything and being paranoid over whether something is there or not. This happens not only in LK but also in Travincal, and almost any area with high monster density on p8 ( eg. worldstone keep areas where three bosspacks spawn next to each other ). There are workarounds to this, such as the 'orange flash' method ( for runes only ), picking up gold, looking at the mess from different positions/angles and so on, but they aren't 100% reliable and they will always slow you down your run time. I think the best solution here is to find something that you like to do, and don't worry about 'run times' or 'efficiency'. They don't really matter, actually. You seem to have a mindset that you need to do 'LK running' for runes. This isn't true at all. I can only speak for myself, but I never did any LK run and I had no trouble getting runes.

    On the other hand, don't buy too much into the hype about charms. Basically, why people value them is because they want the 'best'. There is almost no actual difference between a 8res/15 life and 11res/20 life charm, or between a 20 life and 45 life skiller, gameplay wise. I never really got why people want Diablo 2 charms so much. I would understand if it were median xl ubercharms which are indeed omg imba awesome, which you need to kill uberbosses to get, thus having the satisfaction of playing uberquests as well as nice reward. One of the genius level changes that median xl made was to rework the whole charm system that way rather than having to kill some random weak monsters ( or spam teleport and open some chests LOL ) to get crappy-crap Diablo 2 charms. The way some people go out of their way to obtain certain charms on the trade forums, it is rly funny sometimes..

  8. #28
    IncGamers Member japanzaman's Avatar
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    I've never done extended LK runs and have managed to score some pretty high runes myself over the years. Enough for BoD, Enigma, ect, even off of untwinked characters. LK is probably the most efficient for runes and charms, but you're probably not going to find much else of value. As far as clutter, I'll vouch for the orange flash. I see it every time, without fail provided I'm not in too bright a room.

  9. #29
    IncGamers Member Gripphon's Avatar
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    Gameplay wise, there is no real difference between plain 11 res charm and 20 life 11 res charm, unless we include several second charms compared to several plain charms. I used plain resist charms on Baal runner with same success as when I used life/res charms. +- some life won't make or break your character.
    But, when it comes to improving your character, if you want to make him as strong as possible, difference between 20 life 11 res and 15 life 8 res is huge. How huge? I personally would pay at least 15x more for 20/11 than for 15/8 (ok, I wouldn't pay anything for 15/8 cause I don't have any benefit from it, but let's assume I would trade for it) because second charm is much easier to get and, well, first one is perfect, which means you can't improve that charm further (unless 20/12 lol). However, gameplay wise (strictly PvM), difference between those charms is almost non-existent. Question is, do player care more about gameplay (in which case he can simply use plain res charms with good success), or is he more for improvement of character to make him stronger. Or something in between.
    Last edited by Gripphon; 16-11-2013 at 13:38.

  10. #30
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    Re: I ran the Countess enough times to cube an Ohm

    So here's my map. Red spots are the chests, yellow spot is the way point. The path is clear. I start on the left and complete the circle counterclockwise. Before when I started my average run time was ~48 seconds. After heeding some of the advice in this thread it has dropped to ~43 seconds and continues to fall. I'm 691 runs and 8.5 hours in. So far I have found an Ist and just a few minutes ago on run #691: a Lo, so I'm pretty happy about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphodbrx View Post
    Darkthrone: I think the point that others are trying to make is that if you don't pick things up and id them, you won't know what they are. It's the same case in Travincal, or level 85 areas, or anything really. That's the fundamental mechanic of Diablo 2.. except for runes of course, which you do know what they are without picking up and id'ing them.. It is really up to you, what you want to pick up and id, and what not to.
    I don't think I ever really argued against this, though. I'm aware that I could potentially be passing up an awesome item, but this is rather moot since I have already said I pick up charms and jewels on my runs - even the large charms since I'm now looking for extra fire resistance for another character I am slowly developing. The only argument I was making was that it does slow you down; however, the good news is I've taken some of the advice in this thread and have lowered my average run time considerably, so it has mitigated that issue for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphodbrx View Post
    I think the best solution here is to find something that you like to do, and don't worry about 'run times' or 'efficiency'. They don't really matter, actually. You seem to have a mindset that you need to do 'LK running' for runes. This isn't true at all. I can only speak for myself, but I never did any LK run and I had no trouble getting runes.
    I think run times and efficiency are important because like many things, I want to spend as little time as possible, otherwise people wouldn't be trying to break 200 faster cast rate breakpoints and whatnot. They do it because it's faster. Regarding the Lower Kurast runs, they just seem to be a fan favourite here, but maybe I have misinterpreted that. The Council and Countess also seem popular. In any case, Lower Kurast fits me best; it's easy and it's relatively safe (even if I do play soft core, dying still annoys me). But I'm not done with the Council yet. I have a character in mind I'd like to try with them, but she's currently in development, awaiting some decent runes (ironic, isn't it?).

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphodbrx View Post
    On the other hand, don't buy too much into the hype about charms. Basically, why people value them is because they want the 'best'. There is almost no actual difference between a 8res/15 life and 11res/20 life charm, or between a 20 life and 45 life skiller, gameplay wise. I never really got why people want Diablo 2 charms so much. I would understand if it were median xl ubercharms which are indeed omg imba awesome, which you need to kill uberbosses to get, thus having the satisfaction of playing uberquests as well as nice reward. One of the genius level changes that median xl made was to rework the whole charm system that way rather than having to kill some random weak monsters ( or spam teleport and open some chests LOL ) to get crappy-crap Diablo 2 charms. The way some people go out of their way to obtain certain charms on the trade forums, it is rly funny sometimes..
    The important charms to me are the magic find ones, because you don't really have to sacrifice your good gear to have magic find if you can get a decent array of charms. You may still have to swap out an item or two, but I feel like that's their main advantage. To me, anyway.

    Honestly, I'm not trying to be argumentative; I just like talking about Diablo II , and I am grateful for all the replies and advice in this thread.

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