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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member Holy Dude's Avatar
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    Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    If I max Frenzy and WW, and then some synergies along with Battle Orders and Mastery, can it work with two Breath of the Dyings? Would it be effective for:
    a) PVP
    b) PVM
    c) All of the above
    And explain why? Thanks in advance.


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  2. #2
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    It would be a big waste. Isn't that obvious? One can't use both skills simultaneously. I'm sure it could kill stuff, since much weaker weapons than Breath of the Dying are viable for both skills. You'd have a bad Frenzier and a bad WW barb with two very expensive weapons. BotD/BotD isn't even the best combo for either WW or Frenzy. It's just a total waste.

    A: I don't PvP, but Frenzy isn't generally considered for it on account of being a melee skill that precludes the use of a shield and relies on building up charge.
    B: Assuming decent gear in the other slots, it would beat the game and probably pretty easily. I suppose I could even do so by hotkeying either WW or Frenzy, without even using the other skill and just treating the other skill points as lost.
    C: All of the above? That's not a meaningful concept here. You asked if it would be effective for one thing and then if it would be effective for another, different, thing. Asking if it would effective for "all of the above" is just saying you're asking the same two questions again for some reason.
    D: Do you have to end every post with that line about your iPad? I mean, I realize that it's automated, but it's also kind of spammy.

  3. #3
    IncGamers Member Holy Dude's Avatar
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtar View Post
    It would be a big waste. Isn't that obvious? One can't use both skills simultaneously. I'm sure it could kill stuff, since much weaker weapons than Breath of the Dying are viable for both skills. You'd have a bad Frenzier and a bad WW barb with two very expensive weapons. BotD/BotD isn't even the best combo for either WW or Frenzy. It's just a total waste.

    A: I don't PvP, but Frenzy isn't generally considered for it on account of being a melee skill that precludes the use of a shield and relies on building up charge.
    B: Assuming decent gear in the other slots, it would beat the game and probably pretty easily. I suppose I could even do so by hotkeying either WW or Frenzy, without even using the other skill and just treating the other skill points as lost.
    C: All of the above? That's not a meaningful concept here. You asked if it would be effective for one thing and then if it would be effective for another, different, thing. Asking if it would effective for "all of the above" is just saying you're asking the same two questions again for some reason.
    D: Do you have to end every post with that line about your iPad? I mean, I realize that it's automated, but it's also kind of spammy.
    Sorry about that. I don't know how to take it off.

  4. #4
    IncGamers Member Holy Dude's Avatar
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    Never mind I figured it out

  5. #5
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    For just general PvM, WW/Frenzy is actually a very good combo because each skills strengths & weakness are almost exact opposites. Frenziers can have a really hard time with hard-hitting swarms due to the shieldless + interruptible + (somewhat) immobile nature of their attack - while whirlwind provides a strong counter-attack to those weaknesses by providing a mobile & uninterruptible attack. And a Frenzier can provide all the single-target-locking and ctc effects that a whirler wishes for on some occasions.

    Next, beyond the base skills (20 points in BO, Weapon Mastery, and Frenzy or Whirl), consider that each additional point in the Frenzy synergies gives you an additional 8% damage while Frenzying - while each additional point in Whirlwind gives you an additional 8% damage while whirling. So if you use each attack roughly as often as the other, does it really matter that much where you spend those points? You may be sacrificing some top-end Frenzy damage for adding (essentially) a 2nd primary attack in Whirlwind. Since the Whirlwind-build doesn't have synergies, you're not really sacrificing much except whatever 4th skill you'd choose to pursue otherwise.

    Finally, a lot of folks would point out that the FRW from a charged-up Frenzy would suck while whirling. My experience was that the biggest downside was actually maintaining enough mana-leech for such few hits per whirl, but generally the extra FRW was mostly a non-factor if I controlled my whirling accurately (and it was fantastic for avoiding/escaping-while-still-attacking-and-killing the most dangerous swarms). Overall I found the increased FRW to be about 75% good & 25% bad while whirling.

    For PvP, Namtar's point is spot-on (I've never been a PvP guy either, but it's still pretty clear). And for specialized purposes (MF runs, etc), you're probably going to want a more specialized build. But for general PvM monster-killing, I've actually found a Whirling Frenzier to be a pleasantly fun and somewhat effective build, especially with nice gear.

  6. #6
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    I'm a bit surprised that someone has actually tried this. From raw numbers yeah, it's feasible to drop a Frenzy synergy and max WW instead. The drop in damage output is there, but it isn't enough to cripple Frenzy, especially with Breath of the Dying (I'd use Death as the secondary weapon though, not a second Breath of the Dying). The problem is that to actually get anything out of WW, you have to use it, which means temporary cessation of Frenzy. The whole point of using Frenzy is to run around murdering stuff. Frenetically. And until everything is dead. Hard-hitting swarms? Which ones are those, again? I can't tell when I'm using Frenzy, because they die before they can do anything and I'm leeching back any life lost at 5 FPA.

    Now, Whirlwind can be fun too, and spinning across the map with attacks going off super-quickly does sound like something that would be mindless, but I've actually found the skill to be somewhat tactical in actually applying it. Interrupting my Frenzy train of decimation to do that doesn't strike me as appealing, but apparently at least one person has found it to be fun, so there's that.

  7. #7
    IncGamers Member Holy Dude's Avatar
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    Say for example I make a Whirly Barb and put 1 point into Frenzy as an extra skill? And use Frenzy on occasion for bosses and stuff

  8. #8
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Dude View Post
    Say for example I make a Whirly Barb and put 1 point into Frenzy as an extra skill? And use Frenzy on occasion for bosses and stuff
    It can be a bit cumbersome trying to keep a Whirlwind centered on a boss instead of going way past the boss, wasting time and mana on hitting air, but they still go down. I've never really thought of Frenzy as a one-point skill.

  9. #9
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    HolyDude, my experience (I had dual-griefs when I made this build) was that even with an unsynergized 20 points in Frenzy, 20 points in whirlwind was just barely better at boss kills (though boss-kills was the one area where I really disliked the extra FRW from Frenzy while whirling). Once I got to higher levels (i.e. 92-95) then the few extra points I could dump into Frenzy's synergies started to surpass whirlwind for boss battles.

    So unless you're using drastically different weapons than I was, I don't expect a single-point investment to be an especially good solution. Also, don't forget that one definite advantage Frenzy can have over Whirlwind is in Attack Rating, and a lot of bosses are immune to the Ignore Target Defense mod while also having (relatively) high defense & monster levels - often making AR very important for quick boss kills. So if you minimally-invest in Frenzy you risk neutering one clear advantage that Frenzy has inherent to the full 20 point investment.

    Honestly I think a Whirlwind makes a better one-point investment with this build idea, if you want to go that route.

    When I did this, it was in an attempt to get an fast & mostly-safe /players8 melee-Baal runner capable of full clears solo (I play single-player) for a possible run at level 99. For that task I'd generally prefer a Frenzy build, but I found any extra-fast Lister spawn to be really tough on the Frenzier, which is where Whirlwind came into play - a 20 point whirlwind investment could handle Lister's boys in roughly the same timeframe but it was quite a bit more safe for the task. Single-point Whirlwind could have worked, but it's not a fast killer on /players8 Lister, even with dual griefs and good gear.

    Weighing those options (and a few others like PDR gear or WarCry) I eventually decided to try this hybrid as an attempt to keep high killspeed for all spawns, and although he still turned out a little too fragile for me to pursue a run to 99, I did find the build quite fun and viable overall.

  10. #10
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    Re: Would a WW/Frenzy be effective?

    In my experiences with Barbs long ago (haven't made a serious one in years) I found all options very viable. Maxing WW and using even just one point in Frenzy made for a fun combination. Simply hotkey the two, make a few hits with Frenzy, and then WW faster into mobs.

    On the converse, I made a maxed Frenzy build with just one point in WW and it was also good. Hit the single targets harder and save WW for when you get swarmed. WW wasn't much of a killer on this build, but I was almost always able to safely escape from groups.

    For both of the above options (or really any melee PvM build) I almost always use Dracul's as it is, so dying was rarely an issue. With enough Crushing Blow, even the one-point Frenzy with max WW could do Ubers, it just took a bit longer. Conversely, the Frenzy build STOMPED Ubers, and whenever one of them died I would immediately WW out of all of their minions, leeching back life and getting to safety before going to the next boss.

    As far as PvP goes, I wouldn't rule out Frenzy, at least again some builds. It doesn't necessarily require charging up. You simply name-lock them. The only characters who were a real hassle were those using teleport, so it was mainly Hammerdins, Ghost Sins and Sorcs who gave me trouble. Of course, I found WW to not be much better against them, especially without the speed from Frenzy, since they easily evaded my dance anyways.

    Answers to these questions fall into the "almost all builds are somewhat viable for PvM, and all PvP build will have strengths and weaknesses against some," category. Do what you want, have fun with it, and make changes to stats, gear and skills accordingly.

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