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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member Lord_Jaroh's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I think that you should be able to "sell" an item to a vendor, but that it randomly shows up at a vendor in someone else's game, thus giving a reason for the vendors, as well as putting a cap on what you can buy. If someone buys the item, you get more money.

  2. #12
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    That is a really interesting idea.
    It could lead people to standing at vendors all the time though (Sacred 2 did that, simply by offering good items from vendors). But if it was random/rare enough, maybe it could really just be something cool you found once in a while, rather than required vendor hugging.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZappaFan View Post
    Items being too cheap? When was the last time you played D3?
    A few months ago I think. Nothing has changed since then as far as I know.
    Really good items sell for nothing on AH. Best items sell for millions/billions of course.

  3. #13
    IncGamers Member Clavdivs's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germancus, The God, noticing that divine post put elsewhere is not even read, decided not to punish the offenders, but to give them another chance to embrace heavenly wisdom, for a while, at least.

    The God does not barter. However, The God is merciful and understanding, and supports the mortal desire to trade, in safe and secure manner, for items or real money alike - but AH solution was condemned by divine being long time ago - for following reasons:
    1. Being too impersonal and lifeless - it could be organized in totally different manner
    2. The number of items for sale was too great, contributing to overly large offer. Players didn't find 10 worthy items per day - they hardly found one in ten days. A system with 10 items with cashout or last-second overbidding was meant for bots, not mortals. By lowering the number of saleable items, a better selection could be acquired. The God will discuss potential bidding later.
    3. Potentials of abuse, too many to be numbered
    4. The odd number of hours - XXXVI, really? Why not one day? The system favours rather peculiar life-cycle, needlessly
    The system proposed long time ago by divine being was called bartering:

    A player puts an item, just one item on sale - ensuring that good stuff is offered, instead mass junk of flee-market that AH is. Seller puts what he desires for item, which is either:
    - a price in real money (this is important for both players and Blizzard) - a chance to make money is a very motivating factor
    - short specification or a characteristics of items he would accept in return (eg 'will trade for a intelligence socketed helms', 'will trade for legendary gloves this-and-that'
    - list of other commodities, high-level gems or crafting-material with starting quantity

    Note: Several options can be selected as acceptable by seller. Rather than writing in plain language, wanted items are selected from drop-down menus.


    Other players can search for item properties as in AH. After finding an item which is interesting enough, a potential buyer makes an offer in accordance to sellers request, or offers something else which he thinks is interesting or valuable enough. The number of offers one player can make is limited to (say) five, in order to reduce spamming to the minimum.

    Anytime between 12-24h, seller can accept one of the offers, or ask for more. When an offer is accepted, the seller can put another item on the market, and all offerers get another free offer slot (again, the limit being 5). If seller asked for more, the parts change - he becomes an exclusive and only bidder asking for an increase in price - the other player can offer more, or cancel the deal.

    Note: Lower limit is introduced to avoid hit-and-run trades and potential abuses. Numbers are just proposal.


    This market allows more personal and interesting interactions between players - for example, names will be listed - if anyone can see your account at any time (which The God is strongly against), why not seeing at least your name when trading? Perhaps players hate each other and doesn't want to deal? Perhaps players are forum or bnet friends and will accept low price in the name of friendship? Perhaps player is an obvious or known botter and people won't deal with him for general principles?


    This market system was proposed by heavenly being long time ago, but was ignored completely or ridiculed by plebeian trading caste, unworthy scum from far provinces.

    Divine opinion is that the market system is far more personal than AH, but more safe and less degrading than shouting over some channels, like a fish-trader. It doesn't eliminate safe trade possibilities, even building profit on trading, but does not make market exclusive place for getting good items - player needs to have something to offer, in order to gain something. This includes real gold (why not?) but excludes in-game gold, a source of many evils.


    This system is imperfect since Blizzard decided to make (all current) maps static, it still does allow botting - but this is a general game flaw.

    This system slows down trade from maniacal amount of item displayed and offers given (at least ten times), still not eliminating trading to be source of wealth, only reducing it.


    The God likes better AH-less game than AH-only game, but would prefer to keep some trading for mortals, which is destined to happen - real money trade included, only moved to 3rd party sites. In game gold becomes mostly not needed, as it should be for a currency that appears from thin air, modified several times by varying bonuses or is bought with real gold.

    The God allows divine views to be discussed!

  4. #14
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    How exactly is AH fine in a scenario where everyone wants different things?

    It would lower the price variation on items, since the demand for trifecta would be lower, but items being too expensive is hardly the main problem with AH.
    Rather it's items being too cheap, and the transaction being too convenient.
    If anything, it seems like every spec wanting different items, could make AH even worse for the gameplay experience.
    Currently, there's only a few items anyone wants. Most things you find are useless and worthless for EVERYONE, the few items that are useful for you are also useful for everyone else and between that, and the high degree of item variance causing a high degree of variance in item values the only way of getting good items is by selling good items... except that since it's the same good items, the only way of actually >buying< upgrades is with real money, since you had to find one of the few good items yourself otherwise and therefore getting a good item, even if it's not the same good item... This is true both with and without an AH.

    If different people are wanting different things, it is possible for you to find items that are good, but not for you. And then you sell them and buy items that are good for you. Conversely if you find a Vault ring and have no interest in Demon Huntees and can't sell it, that's functionally no different than finding yet another 30 str 40 dex 50 int item.

  5. #15
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Sure, but that doesn't seem to count as AH being fine, for a lot of people. Just better maybe.

    AH would still be the, by far, easiest way to get the items you want. More so than before, since there would be less of a demand for the items you were looking for, lovering their price (well, probably not, as that would require 1) Loot 2.0 to be good and 2) more builds to be useful per class)

  6. #16
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    And without an AH at all it is still easier gearing with the help of others.

    How many items in D2 are "Shako"? Answer: 1.
    How many items or combinations of items in D2 are "Worth a Pul or an Um rune"? Answer: Many more than 1.

    Going by basic probability you are much more likely to find a thing or things of equivalent value than directly finding what you seek, and D2 droprates, if you had to find the exact items you sought instead of selling and buying were also bad. Add in lots of specialized loot, when you can go on the AH right now and find a half dozen or less of a given specialized item and anything less than that sort of wide reaching market will yield no matches at all.

  7. #17
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I would really appreciate it if the AH vs. no AH discussion would move someplace else, preferably where it's actually the topic (maybe here). The basic premise of this thread is that the AH is going away and I'd like to hear alternatives, because I assume that not many people here want to trade through a chat channel again that moves faster than they can read it.

    Jonw brought up a few points about my idea elsewhere. Here's my reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonw View Post
    Again, I like your ideas, but you're back to using gold and a central market where people list their items. Sounds kind of deja vu all over again.
    Well, when you trade through a chat channel it's a central market as well, but it's such a noisy one that you can't really find or advertise what you want. That's why I think an AH-like interface is a requirement even for bartering. It could allow players to advertise their items even during gameplay and while I think this is a good thing it's completely optional. Staying in the market UI could be a requirement to having your items listed in the market if Blizzard would so desire.

    As for the currency, gold would be optional, but it's the only way to display a price in a manner that could be evaluated in a quick glance, so I think it would be the primary way the market should display prices. Maybe the list of wanted items (or better yet, stats) could be viewed in a mouse-over tooltip, when you hover your cursor over an item you want to buy.

    I don't want bartering to go away in my system. I think it would be great to find an item you want listed for 1 billion gold and even when you don't have enough money for it have something else to offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonw View Post
    People just want gear up fast, in general, and they will do that through third party sources if there is no convenient in-game option.
    Sure, but my system would still be better than a third-party site in my opinion. The negotiation part would work the same way basically. There would be less risks involved, because you couldn't list items you don't actually have, resulting in less scams. Mine would be integrated into the game as well, just like the AH, meaning it would most likely have the most players using it. Trading through third-party sites always have the problem that you can only reach a small subset of people playing the game. Ideally players shouldn't really want to use the third-party option, even though it will always exist. If I'm wrong in some way please tell me. It's entirely possible I haven't considered everything related to this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonw View Post
    the way gems and recipes are handled in the AH is terrific -- and very similar to what you describe. The market sets the price and you just go back to gaming.
    I think that even in my proposed system the trading of commodities for gold could be handled separately from other items, in exactly the same way as it's done right now. I'm somewhat against this idea though, because when commodities are handled like this their price can be manipulated by a few players working together. You also couldn't offer items for them, even though you could still offer commodities for items. I don't like that asymmetry.

  8. #18
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I still think my idea of simply switching the current AH to a currency that cannot be botted and sold through 3rd party sites is a very workable alternative. Account bound AH credits that are earned by selling things in the AH or purchased using Paragon points. Leave all the current mechanics of the AH as it is, just change the "gold" to AH credits. Very little new programming required by Blizzard to implement.
    Eschew obfuscation!

  9. #19
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Quote Originally Posted by ZappaFan View Post
    I still think my idea of simply switching the current AH to a currency that cannot be botted and sold through 3rd party sites is a very workable alternative. Account bound AH credits that are earned by selling things in the AH or purchased using Paragon points. Leave all the current mechanics of the AH as it is, just change the "gold" to AH credits. Very little new programming required by Blizzard to implement.
    There are obvious benefits to your idea, and I would love to see it be a BoA currency, but then it being BoA confuses me a bit.

    You would earn this by gaining paragons, so getting your first "tokens" or "credits" would require you to a) sell before being able to buy, or b) get to level cap and start paragoning before being able to buy. Plus side: encourages playing the game and not the AH because you won't have much currency until you're into the "end game" similar to how D2 worked. Down side: basically losing the ability to purchase gear early in the game. Some will consider this a plus.

    Since the currency is BoA.. how does it change hands? Maybe it goes into the AH machine and comes out the other end anew to bind to the other person's account? Then this currency would then ONLY be usable through the AH, requiring the use of the AH to broker the transaction, or we'd have to return to wugwuw...

    sent from my GalaxySIII

  10. #20
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    Re: Alternative trading systems

    You have the idea, AH credits are BoA but they can be "spent" in the AH, and only in the AH.

    And it isn't going to take long to start earning Paragon in the new system, I would assume just as soon as you get your first character to 70 (doubt that will take people a real long time). And certainly I would imagine that people will be finding stuff right off that they want to try and sell in the AH.

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    There are obvious benefits to your idea, and I would love to see it be a BoA currency, but then it being BoA confuses me a bit.

    You would earn this by gaining paragons, so getting your first "tokens" or "credits" would require you to a) sell before being able to buy, or b) get to level cap and start paragoning before being able to buy. Plus side: encourages playing the game and not the AH because you won't have much currency until you're into the "end game" similar to how D2 worked. Down side: basically losing the ability to purchase gear early in the game. Some will consider this a plus.

    Since the currency is BoA.. how does it change hands? Maybe it goes into the AH machine and comes out the other end anew to bind to the other person's account? Then this currency would then ONLY be usable through the AH, requiring the use of the AH to broker the transaction, or we'd have to return to wugwuw...

    sent from my GalaxySIII
    Eschew obfuscation!

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