Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26
  1. #1
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Budapest, Hungary
    Posts
    4,081

    Alternative trading systems

    I'm sure everyone heard by now (Blizzard played it safe by telling us in as many ways as they could) that the Diablo 3 Auction House is closing on March 18, 2014. Unless the guys at Blizzard somehow mistook this day for April 1 I think this is happening. Besides, I got a mail about it from Elly as well, so it must be true.

    The reasons given for this huge change in how the game plays make perfect sense to me. Diablo is every bit about hunting for items by ourselves as it is about trading for them, but with the AH trading superseded the actual hunt for items too much. While trading will still be possible even after the closure of the AH, dedicated traders are understandably disappointed with this decision. If we will be back to trading the D2 way, through chat spam, I can't say I blame them. This is part of the reason why I was thinking about a trade system that while wouldn't be as effortless as an AH, shouldn't feel as archaic as a purely chat based one would either. It should fit the D3 devs goal for the game as well. Here's my proposition in some detail:

    As a seller, you could flag items you want to sell right in your inventory (even outside of games) and these would appear in an AH like list (from any of your characters), no named games or chat spam necessary. Items would appear in this list only when you're online, so no posting items to the market (giev moar stesh). On the other hand you could flag as many items as you want for sale, not just 10. The limiting factor would be how much free space you would be willing to give up for trading. Specifying a target price (or potentially even a list of items for bartering) should still be possible, but the trade would happen in-game or possibly directly through the chat, where you could still haggle or negotiate to use items as payment. No buyout price or bidding.

    As a buyer, you could still search and filter items by equipment slots, rarity or stats and you could initiate the trading games right from the trading UI. Just right-click on the item you want to buy and select an option that would display a popup for the seller that a buyer has been found, with your name added. After this the sellers could decide how to proceed. They could invite you to their current game, a new game, or choose to facilitate the trade in the chat. Ideally all of these should be options right on the popup message and sending items through the chat should be possible as well.

    This is basically still a bartering system, but with bells and whistles and an AH-like interface. I think a system like this would be a huge improvement over pure chat-based trading, but it would still require enough effort from traders that trading wouldn't be so ubiquitous and feel as necessary as it does now, because drop chances could be adjusted to better suit non-traders, without the global economy (which would cease to exist) becoming flooded with items. This way trading and farming could be much better balanced, hopefully reaching a happy medium in the process.

    In another thread ShadoutMapes already had a few remarks about this system:

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    Harassers could annoy the hell out of sellers, by offering to buy and then leave after the trade game was created.

    It would certainly lower the amount of trading though. Which is a goal.
    But, as long as you would have a global search for all items available (which I assume you would), I think trading would still be very substantial.
    It makes huge difference I think, that you can directly compare all available items, both as a buyer and seller.

    In a classic barter system you cant really know if you could have gotten a better deal elsewhere. Both as a buyer and seller.

    Theoretically true in D2 as well - although the small variation within the unique items made it simpler - and also having items that were "perfect" as currencies; runes, and to some degree SoJ (SoJ wasn't exactly perfect as a currency. That just happened anyway).

    Forums will arise where people can get an idea and compare items, but those will never be truly global. Far from it even.

    Note: Not saying the above is necessarily preferable, just pointing at differences
    My reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    Those are great points. Feel free to point out differences like this.

    Anyway, harassment would indeed be a problem in this system. This crossed my mind as well as I wrote my post, but I only wanted to talk about the outlines of the system first. First of all, perma-ignore should be an option on the trade popup for occasions when it's one guy that harasses you constantly. Furthermore, while you are in a trade game (Battle.net should be able easily flag an track games like this) you wouldn't get any more popups until the buyer or you leave the game.

    As for the global search, well, it wouldn't be global anymore if you think about it. Items wouldn't be listed when the seller isn't online (or possibly not even when he or she is AFK), so at any time you would only get a small subset of items available for trade. Comparing items would be of course still easier than it is in the old-school bartering system (you would see a much larger subset of items), resulting in more stable prices, but I think a certain level of stability is a good thing. This should help budding traders as well, by enabling them to learn the value of things faster.
    Feel free to critique my idea and post your own if you have one. However, please don't start a debate about why the AH should or shouldn't go, as this thread isn't about that at all. We have enough threads discussing that topic already. Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
    Last edited by HardRock; 21-09-2013 at 06:01.

  2. #2
    Hardcore Moderator
    America Trade Moderator
    ZappaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Oldsmar, FL
    BattleTag ZappaFan-1229
    Posts
    2,981

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    The AH is a great mechanism for trading off your trade-able items. It became a problem because of the crappy drops leading to it being pretty much the only viable way for most people to upgrade. Couple that with insane inflation due to Real Money linkage both to items/gold in the RMAH and Real Money purchased gold even in HC via gold botters/sellers. With runaway inflation and crappy drops of course most people are frustrated with the AH. If we had good drops and no Real Money linked currency system a lot more people would have liked the AH. It was a huge mistake to make the most easily botted thing in the game the base currency for it all.

    The best thing about the AH is that it takes the least amount of time away from actually playing the game to kill monsters and find loot. It gives you greater chances to find your own upgrades playing the game because it can all happen while you are killing monsters for loot (assuming the drops are decent enough to allow that), as well as the absolute most convenient way to trade away good loot that you find that you don't need/want yourself.

    What we need is the AH as it currently is, but the currency needs to be something that cannot be botted and/or sold for Real Money. Something like an AH credit system that is account bound. AH credits are earned by selling things in the AH, and then in turn used to buy things in the AH (items, commodities, etc.). I would also make anything purchased in the AH have a period of time where the item would be account bound so that item sites aren't buying stuff in the AH and trying to sell it for Real Money. I wouldn't make it them permanently BoA, because people that are buying upgrades and would like to be able to sell the old gear still need to be able to do that. Perhaps make a purchased item from the AH BoA for a month.

    Another thing I thought of is to perhaps make AH Credits something else you can spend Paragon Points on. So people that aren't finding anything good to sell but are playing the game at least have some way to build up some little bit of AH credits.

    Of course, this assumes that Loot 2.0 is as good as advertised. If the AH is the only real way to upgrade your gear, people are going to hate it no matter how good the actual mechanism is.

    It's really such a shame to just toss the whole AH concept all together. A classic case of tossing the baby out with the bathwater.
    Eschew obfuscation!

  3. #3
    IncGamers Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    462

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I like the sound of that AH credit system.

    But yeah, what I don't think ppl understand is that the reason why the AH is perceived negatively is because Blizzard "balanced" drops due to the existence of the AH. If the drops were more like what u would expect from D2, then I don't think ppl would be complaining about the AH so much. The complaints are that they HAVE to use the AH to actually obtain worthwhile gear. So I don't think Blizzard's removal of the AH was really the right way to go about things.

    For this to work, they will have to drastically change the way loot drops work. For starters, they will at least need to change gem drop rates and allow u to find gems better then flawless squares. Can u imagine outfitting a character with radiant stars on your own? I think for most normal ppl it would be impossible without spending years on the game. But I think if they changed is so that u could find stuff like perfect stars etc at a drop rate similar to HRs in D2, it would be ok.

  4. #4
    IncGamers Member Vorador's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    45

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I think they should start making some progress with Battle.net 2.0 and actually add some social features to it and since the AH is gone there's room to intertwine trating into that as well. For example it would be convinient to open a trade window from the chat interface. With the reintroduction of a lobby sort of chats that would at least make trading easier than joining actuals games and you can have more people there. Still, it's noway near as convinient as the AH and the WTB/WTS spam will be all over the place.

  5. #5
    IncGamers Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    462

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    I was thinking maybe a "classifieds" section could work. The idea would be u have your own little section where u can type in what u r trying to sell, and perhaps u could link in your item as well, so u don't have to spend lines detailing all the stats. Then ppl can search the classifieds for whatever keyword they want.

    It would probably be a lot more convenient that way than having to sift through chat spam.

  6. #6
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Budapest, Hungary
    Posts
    4,081

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Malicious View Post
    I was thinking maybe a "classifieds" section could work. The idea would be u have your own little section where u can type in what u r trying to sell, and perhaps u could link in your item as well, so u don't have to spend lines detailing all the stats. Then ppl can search the classifieds for whatever keyword they want.
    Sounds similar to what I had in mind. I assume items up for trade would be visible even when the seller isn't online, correct?

    Let me repost my reply to JEB90's post from another thread here as well. In my reply I touched upon the possibility of keeping the AH, while improving the drops and why I think that wouldn't help things:

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    Any bartering system will develop its own currency over time for the simple reason that not everyone wants the same thing at the same time.
    I think gold could be kept as the primary currency if people could still list their items with an asking price at a central market. It's much easier to just say how much gold you want for something than to negotiate a trade with items. Those have much more variables that would have to satisfy both parties and we already know how much people prefer to do things effortlessly.

    The point is that some people still prefer trading this way and they could do so in the system I proposed. Because trades would happen directly between two players they could do whatever the hell they want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    All your trading system (or any trading system) does is inject arbitrary time sinks. No thanks.
    I can see why that would suck for someone who trades frequently. What's the alternative though? With the AH in the game, how would you solve the problem that Blizzard and many people have with the game, namely that "it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot"?

    That definition of core gameplay relegates trading to second-class status. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I definitely don't agree with doing things the other way around and feeling that trading is the primary way to get what you want. I don't think it's an either-or situation, trading and farming could be better balanced than that and the choice between the two should ideally be down to personal preferences. The current situation in my opinion could be solved through better drops or through a more restricted way of trading.

    I already said why I would much prefer something more along the lines of the latter. For example, at the 150-200k DPS gear level (I hate that this is just about the only thing that matters in the game) I can either spend god knows how many hours to find an upgrade or I can just spend a few to farm a few million gold (with trading on the side, because why the hell not?), go to the AH and buy an upgrade. How much would drops have to improve for this problem to go away? In my opinion the answer is: it doesn't really matter, because you will always be choosing between a chance to get what you want and a guarantee. Improving drops would also devalue items even more. Hell, with the way the economy is progressing, without the release of RoS you could probably buy MP10 gear for a few million gold in less than a year. If you're a Barb you can already do that if you like using builds that don't require you to pay any attention to what's happening on your screen. This is why I think a more restricted trading is the way to go: to better preserve the value of items, even with the new revision of the loot system that will include better drops.

    I definitely don't want chat spam again, even though I know that if the devs do their job right I won't be trading that much after the release of RoS, or at all. Trading through chat is way too messy. Not surprising, given that it was born out of necessity, not out of a clear design. I don't want to return to that system, which is why I proposed an alternative, that in my opinion would make things more manageable.

  7. #7
    Hardcore Moderator
    America Trade Moderator
    ZappaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Oldsmar, FL
    BattleTag ZappaFan-1229
    Posts
    2,981

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    There is no way gold can stay as the main currency because of all the gold botting, 3rd party gold sellers, and the inflation that it caused. You can't ignore that fact. Two things killed the AH. Crappy drops making the AH the only way to upgrade your gear, coupled with runaway inflation due to gold being purchased for money. The AH as a trading mechanism is not what doomed it. Had the drops been good and there been no way to obtain AH currency with real money the AH would still be thriving and Blizz wouldn't be removing it.
    Eschew obfuscation!

  8. #8
    IncGamers Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,824

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Quote Originally Posted by ZappaFan View Post
    There is no way gold can stay as the main currency because of all the gold botting, 3rd party gold sellers, and the inflation that it caused. You can't ignore that fact. Two things killed the AH. Crappy drops making the AH the only way to upgrade your gear, coupled with runaway inflation due to gold being purchased for money. The AH as a trading mechanism is not what doomed it. Had the drops been good and there been no way to obtain AH currency with real money the AH would still be thriving and Blizz wouldn't be removing it.
    It wasn't drop quality, it was drop centralization.

    If Blizzard said right now, "Remember when we said we'd remove the AH in 6 months? We were joking, it goes now."

    Well, Mempos are still crit or ****, Skorns are still lifesteal or GTFO... there's still only a few stats anyone wants, and by extension a few items that have the most of those stats. Everyone wants the same few things, doesn't want anything else, most items are useless and worthless for everyone, and if you find something good for you it's also good for everyone else.

    Conversely if we got the new items now, assuming that system actually worked correctly different people would want different things, and in that model an AH is fine.

    Instead we get something relevant in the current game (more diverse items) and then the game goes and changes. What I think will happen is you'll find items that are good, but not for you, and since you can't just sell them anymore that isn't functionally different than finding stuff that isn't good for anyone.

  9. #9
    IncGamers Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,924

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Hazani View Post
    Conversely if we got the new items now, assuming that system actually worked correctly different people would want different things, and in that model an AH is fine.
    How exactly is AH fine in a scenario where everyone wants different things?

    It would lower the price variation on items, since the demand for trifecta would be lower, but items being too expensive is hardly the main problem with AH.
    Rather it's items being too cheap, and the transaction being too convenient.
    If anything, it seems like every spec wanting different items, could make AH even worse for the gameplay experience.

  10. #10
    Hardcore Moderator
    America Trade Moderator
    ZappaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Oldsmar, FL
    BattleTag ZappaFan-1229
    Posts
    2,981

    Re: Alternative trading systems

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    Rather it's items being too cheap, and the transaction being too convenient.
    Items being too cheap? When was the last time you played D3?
    Eschew obfuscation!

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •