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  1. #41
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonw View Post
    I spent hours in D2 in trade games, and it was next to impossible to figure out what stuff was worth. D3 solved that.
    Yes, but at what cost? Please read my whole post before you answer.

    I feel that at the root of this discussion is the time required to acquire items, or in other words the balance between drop chances and the effort required for trading.

    Increasing drop chances would help things, but only temporarily, in the really short-term. Eventually prices would adjust and then you would be back to choosing between getting an upgrade right now for pennies (figuratively speaking... kinda) or going back to rolling the dice and possibly not getting that upgrade at all and not necessarily only when you already have high-end gear.

    Of course, you could raise drop chances or change how affixes are rolled to the extremes as well (to balance effortless trading), to give players not interested in trading a comparatively good way to acquire their gear. With the current trading system though that would devalue items probably to a level that you could buy perfect Legendaries (only preferred affixes with maximum values) for a few millions of gold. However, you can achieve the same balance between item acquisition methods if you restrict trading. That way items will retain more of their value. In both cases the number of traders would drop and that's exactly the goal here, to make the game less about trading, to have a better balance between finding things yourself and trading for them.

    No matter what people say, Diablo was never about trading, it was all about items. If that's not true, then why do you trade? I'm sure some people simply enjoy the social interaction of it, but I think the majority of traders are in it for the items. A game about items should balance every way of their acquisition well.

    I don't think Blizzard wants to eliminate trading completely (I certainly don't), they just want to make it less of a requirement. Right now trading is the only viable way to progress after a certain gear level for many people, which is not the problem in itself. The problem is that this gear level starts really early in Inferno. I think the long-term success of D2 was largely due to the fact that you could play alone and still have a good chance of finding gear in your lifetime not only to finish Hell, but even to faceroll it. Trading helped this process if you wanted to invest time in it (which was important, because it balanced the time invested into farming), but it never overshadowed self-found quite like the AH does in my opinion. If D2 had an AH, there would have been almost no need for duping, the majority of items would have been at the fingertips of every player after a few months (probably not Zod runes though, those would have required slightly more time ).

    As kinda an aside, item binding of course serves the purpose of making trading less compulsory as well. Its introduction into the game was a clear indication that Blizzard wants to break our overreliance on trading in general.

    I hope that I demonstrated clearly that the implementation of trading is always a compromise, it has pros and cons. Currently the game punishes people who don't like to trade by almost forcing them to do so in Inferno. The solution necessitates that traders will have a harder time, either because trading will require more effort or because drop chances will have to skyrocket. In either case less people will be trading. Since the first solution better preserves the value of items I think traders should be happy that Blizzard went this way. As I've already said, it's the lesser evil (kinda like Andariel compared to Diablo ).
    Last edited by HardRock; 20-09-2013 at 08:36.

  2. #42
    IncGamers Member fsj's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonw View Post
    This. I spent hours in D2 in trade games, and it was next to impossible to figure out what stuff was worth. D3 solved that.
    Am I the only one who thought that was the best thing about D2 trading?

    Not necessarily the way in which it was done, (games/channel spam) but haggling for the right deal, rather than everything decent costing 2 billion, you knew that if you found the right person after a particular item that you had you could get a rewarding deal out of it. To someone who wasn't chasing that item though it was trash. The value was determined by how badly someone wants something rather than going onto the AH, searching similar items and just slightly undercutting the most similar item.

    Then the more you trade the more you learn what everything is worth, rather than it just being sated in a flat amount of gold/$$.

    For me item for item trades work far better than item purchases for gold in an ARPG. I was all up for a barter house in D3. You place your offers and needs (in the form of items only - no gold). People can then select an item, show what they are willing to trade for it. If you see a deal worth your while you accept and the items are swapped.

    I would have much preferred that to the AH/RMAH how it is.

    Probably just me, though .

  3. #43
    IncGamers Member fnaxqtr's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    i am glad you dont play d3x

  4. #44
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Just out of curiousity, how would you guys feel about a trading system, which would have an AH-like interface, but with nearly all the barriers a barter system has? Here's what I propose in some detail:

    As a seller, you could flag items you want to sell right in your inventory (even outside of games) and these would appear in an AH like list (from any of your characters). Items would appear in this list only when you're online, so no posting items to the market (giev moar stesh). On the other hand you could flag as many items as you want for sale, not just 10. The limiting factor would be how much free space you would be willing to give up for trading. Specifying a target price should still be possible, but the trade would happen in-game or possibly directly through the chat, where you could still haggle or negotiate to use items as payment. No buyout price or bidding.

    As a buyer, you could still filter items by equipment slots, rarity or stats and you could initiate the trading games right from the trading UI. Just right-click on the item you want to buy and select an option that would display a popup for the seller that a buyer has been found, with your name added. After this the sellers could decide how to proceed. They could invite you to their current game, a new game, or choose to facilitate the trade in the chat. Ideally all of these should be options right on the popup message and sending items through the chat should be possible as well.

    This is basically still a bartering system, but with bells and whistles. No named games or chat spam necessary. I think a system like this would still require enough effort from traders that trading wouldn't be so ubiquitous and feel as necessary as does now and so drop chances could be adjusted to better suit non-traders, without the global economy (which would cease to exist) becoming flooded by items. This way trading and farming could be much better balanced.
    Last edited by HardRock; 20-09-2013 at 16:03.

  5. #45
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Harassers could annoy the hell out of sellers, by offering to buy and then leave after the trade game was created.

    It would certainly lower the amount of trading though. Which is a goal.
    But, as long as you would have a global search for all items available (which I assume you would), I think trading would still be very substantial.
    It makes huge difference I think, that you can directly compare all available items, both as a buyer and seller.

    In a classic barter system you cant really know if you could have gotten a better deal elsewhere. Both as a buyer and seller.

    Theoretically true in D2 as well - although the small variation within the unique items made it simpler - and also having items that were "perfect" as currencies; runes, and to some degree SoJ (SoJ wasn't exactly perfect as a currency. That just happened anyway).

    Forums will arise where people can get an idea and compare items, but those will never be truly global. Far from it even.

    Note: Not saying the above is necessarily preferable, just pointing at differences
    Last edited by ShadoutMapes; 20-09-2013 at 16:06.

  6. #46
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Those are great points. Feel free to point out differences like this. Maybe I should create a new thread for this idea though, as it's kinda off-topic here.

    Anyway, harassment would indeed be a problem in this system. This crossed my mind as well as I wrote my post, but I only wanted to talk about the outlines of the system first. First of all, perma-ignore should be an option on the trade popup for occasions when it's one guy that harasses you constantly. Furthermore, while you are in a trade game (Battle.net should be able easily flag an track games like this) you wouldn't get any more popups until the buyer or you leave the game.

    As for the global search, well, it wouldn't be global anymore if you think about it. Items wouldn't be listed when the seller isn't online (or possibly not even when he or she is AFK), so at any time you would only get a small subset of items available for trade. Comparing items would be of course still easier than it is in the old-school bartering system (you would see a much larger subset of items), resulting in more stable prices, but I think a certain level of stability is a good thing. This should help budding traders as well, by enabling them to learn the value of things faster.

    EDIT: Will start a new topic for ideas like this soon.

    EDIT2: New thread is up: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/s...rading-systems
    Last edited by HardRock; 21-09-2013 at 05:59.

  7. #47
    IncGamers Member RyTEK's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Is this some sort of joke?

    AH ruined this game. It is easily the driver of:
    1) Online only (rather they admit it or not)
    2) Quick boredom (boo hoo why can't I find a drop as awesome as this item I bought for $100M gold!?!?)
    3) Lack of item affix complexity so that items could be listed based upon one of the 4 core categories.
    4) Lack of bnet chats which would promote in-game trading instead of AH listing.

    Took me 20 seconds to rattle those off, I'm sure I could think of 10 more.

    IMO AH is the worst thing that could have ever happened to this game and I am glad there is a new game director who sees that there were about 2500 people trading on d2jsp and dii forums and hundreds of thousands of others who didn't give two craps about RMAH or GAH.

  8. #48
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    Those are great points. Feel free to point out differences like this. Maybe I should create a new thread for this idea though, as it's kinda off-topic here.

    Anyway, harassment would indeed be a problem in this system. This crossed my mind as well as I wrote my post, but I only wanted to talk about the outlines of the system first. First of all, perma-ignore should be an option on the trade popup for occasions when it's one guy that harasses you constantly. Furthermore, while you are in a trade game (Battle.net should be able easily flag an track games like this) you wouldn't get any more popups until the buyer or you leave the game.

    As for the global search, well, it wouldn't be global anymore if you think about it. Items wouldn't be listed when the seller isn't online (or possibly not even when he or she is AFK), so at any time you would only get a small snapshot of items available for trade. Comparing items would be of course still easier than it is now, resulting in more stable prices, but I think a certain level of stability is a good thing. This should help budding traders as well, by enabling them to learn the value of things faster.

    EDIT: Will start a new topic for ideas like this soon.

    EDIT2: New thread is up: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/s...rading-systems
    Any bartering system will develop its own currency over time for the simple reason that not everyone wants the same thing at the same time. All your trading system (or any trading system) does is inject arbitrary time sinks. No thanks.

  9. #49
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    Any bartering system will develop its own currency over time for the simple reason that not everyone wants the same thing at the same time.
    I think gold could be kept as the primary currency if people could still list their items with an asking price at a central market. It's much easier to just say how much gold you want for something than to negotiate a trade with items. Those have much more variables that would have to satisfy both parties and we already know how much people prefer to do things effortlessly.

    The point is that some people still prefer trading this way and they could do so in the system I proposed. Because trades would happen directly between two players they could do whatever the hell they want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    All your trading system (or any trading system) does is inject arbitrary time sinks. No thanks.
    I can see why that would suck for someone who trades frequently. What's the alternative though? With the AH in the game, how would you solve the problem that Blizzard and many people have with the game, namely that "it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot"?

    That definition of core gameplay relegates trading to second-class status. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I definitely don't agree with doing things the other way around and feeling that trading is the primary way to get what you want. I don't think it's an either-or situation, trading and farming could be better balanced than that and the choice between the two should ideally be down to personal preferences. The current situation in my opinion could be solved through better drops or through a more restricted way of trading.

    I already said why I would much prefer something more along the lines of the latter. For example, at the 150-200k DPS gear level (I hate that this is just about the only thing that matters in the game) I can either spend god knows how many hours to find an upgrade or I can just spend a few to farm a few million gold (with trading on the side, because why the hell not?), go to the AH and buy an upgrade. How much would drops have to improve for this problem to go away? In my opinion the answer is: it doesn't really matter, because you will always be choosing between a chance to get what you want and a guarantee. Improving drops would also devalue items even more. Hell, with the way the economy is progressing, without the release of RoS you could probably buy MP10 gear for a few million gold in less than a year. If you're a Barb you can already do that if you like using builds that don't require you to pay any attention to what's happening on your screen. This is why I think a more restricted trading is the way to go: to better preserve the value of items, even with the new revision of the loot system that will include better drops.

    I definitely don't want chat spam again, even though I know that if the devs do their job right I won't be trading that much after the release of RoS, or at all. Trading through chat is way too messy. Not surprising, given that it was born out of necessity, not out of a clear design. I don't want to return to that system, which is why I proposed an alternative, that in my opinion would make things more manageable.
    Last edited by HardRock; 21-09-2013 at 07:10.

  10. #50
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    Re: Why removing the auctionhouse will probably keep me off D3EXP all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Punkonjunk View Post
    Now, brace yourself, as I'm sure this is going to be a huge wall.

    I know I don't, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
    Honestly, sounds like you're too lazy to go spend a few hours farming items, then spend 30 minutes trading them.
    Yes, AH obviously made it much easier to farm trash and upgrade it. The new system is supposed to reduce trash, increase useful drops for your toon, and the drops that aren't useful for your toon you will actually have to put a modicum of effort into turning into something useful.

    Go QQ to your mom, because I don't see a lot of people caring about your personal problems.

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