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  1. #21
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    Re: Arm of Kig Leoric vs. Beast Berserker Axe

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonautical View Post
    Heart of the Oak has WAY moe benefits than skills and cast rate.
    Not to Corpse Explosion specifically, which was what I was addressing. Well, one could make a case for the boosted maximum mana.

    Aside from the fact that it is on-par skill-wise with the Arm (only 2 fewer, but makes up for it by upping Curses, Corpse Explosion and Bone Armor significantly), don't forget that:
    Yeah, one could use it to pre-buff skeletons. It would certainly work. Arm of King Leoric is better for that, but if HotO's other advantages are just that much more desirable, it's not that big of a difference.

    1. It comes with +10 to Dexterity. This is paramount to a Necromancer's build when blocking is a factor. A few saved points or simply better blocking if you have yet to max means more survivability.
    While I don't consider it a major consideration, if the comparison is to Beast, then HotO loses this contest anyway. Even the worst-rolled beast will have more bonus stats than HotO.

    2. It isn't just a matter of more, it is a LOT more when regarding cast rate. 40% is a whopper, considering most of the best wands only have 20%. When it comes to using teleport, yeah, speed IS important, as is laying out Corpse Explosions given that, regardless of the Necromancer, this will always be the best skill to clear mobs.
    I already said this, but Corpse Explosion does its job on mobs even without HotO. One could, if necessary, use 0% FCR. On /players1, it only takes a couple of uses to clear the screen most of the time. On higher player counts, especially /players8, corpses drop slowly enough that they are what limit CE speed, not cast rate. Having more damage from a merc, revived, and skeletons causes the corpses to drop faster, which is another consideration. A Fanaticism aura is good for that.

    As for Teleport, the FCR really is handy there. I use HotO on my bone necro and enjoy the substantial FCR on Teleport. For a summoner, making a travel tool slightly more convenient isn't such a high priority that I'd give up Fanaticism.

    3. The resists, quite obviously, are one of the biggest factors here. Up to 40 resist all, when compared to Beast's 0 and Arm's potential for small amounts via the use of one jewel, this makes Hoto very difficult to pass up.
    They're nice too, but calling them a big factor is a bit much. Necromancers can get resistances from other equipment slots and from charms. There are things that those other items can't provide, such as a Fanaticism aura.

    4. While yes, the level of Oak Sage granted by the charge is laughably weak, when used with a Necromancer who knows how to corral his army, it can stick around. Hammerdins find it useless because it is always two targets. Flood the screen with potential chumps to distract the monsters though, and it isn't unheard of for the little fireball to survive. Even just the measly life from Oak Sage is enough to grant an enormous amount of longevity to your minions.
    I'd have pitched the maximum mana over this one. The Oak Sage always seems to die when things get dangerous, which is exactly when its death is the biggest liability.

    5. It grant 20 replenish life. Now, hear me out, because people really seem to not care about this stat. And rightfully so, given that a majority of players are using Barbarians, Druids, Amazons and Paladins so often that they are often not used to the measly 500-1500 base life that a Necromancer will usually have depending on how much you spent in Dex. 20 replenish life is a drop in the bucket for them. And even for a low-life (ha) necromancer it is a bit low, but people often forget that many summoners use Trang-Oul's set, which already grants 25 replenish life. 45 or more can really add up and cause some decent healing for Necros with low health to begin with, and while it isn't necessarily game-changing, it can often lead to you needing fewer pots and trips to town as you stand behind your meat shields and steadily heal to full health without realizing it.
    I've always considered the Trang-Oul's set to be best-suited for poison. I mean, the gloves are great for a summoner, but the rest can easily be replaced by items that are better for summoners. I don't scoff at Replenish Life, but it's not a big deal to go without it. A summoner using Enigma and a ton of walking shields has an easy time staying healthy anyway, and casting Life Tap, then sneaking up on a monsters and smacking it with Beast does the trick in a pinch.

    In my opinion, Hoto beats them both hands down, especially when using Enigma or Trang-Oul's. The only time I'd even consider a Beast is if I were trying to make the rare Uber Necromancer.
    I don't actually know what is meant by that, unless it's some way of designating a summoner used to take on Uber Tristram.

    Other than that, like it or not, Corpse Explosion is going to be what gets you 85%+ of your kills, and as such it is prudent that it be as powerful as possible while sacrificing as little power from your bone chaps, instead of Beast which severely powers down your Corpse Explosion (as well as Skeletons life) in favor of a bit more damage per second. It's basically trading in superior crowd control, travel speed and safety to make your skeletons into glass cannons.
    Oh, come off it. These are such exaggerations. I get a level 35 Corpse Explosion on my summoner with Beast. If I switched to Heart of the Oak, I'd get a level 38 Corpse Explosion. But 35 is plenty. That's not "severe." Corpse Explosion is still Corpse Explosion.

    As for skeleton life, unless you're talking about the constantly disappearing Oak Sage, the difference is three skill points, not enough that it turns skeletons from tanks into "glass cannons." And besides, Arm of King Leoric to actually summon the skeletons gives them higher life than HotO.

    Also, it's more than "a bit more damage per second." It's a level 9 Fanaticism aura which improves the damage, AR, and attack rate of the skeletons, the merc, and the necromancer wielding a weapon that can actually be used to hit stuff. Because of the option for the necromancer to actually pitch in on attacking things, Beast is significantly better against bosses, where Corpse Explosion can be useless. I contend that it's better to make a summoner excel in all the situations where his "press my hotkey for Corpse Explosion and win" tactic isn't viable, rather than optimizing entirely around the one skill that kills most mobs easily, and could do so even for a naked necro.

  2. #22
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    Re: Arm of Kig Leoric vs. Beast Berserker Axe

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarniwoop View Post
    I am always a necro, and I tried beast one ladder.

    Complete waste of time for my playstyle, which is telefrag.

    Once you have a body on the ground, you'll out damage your entire army.

    I'd use a hoto over both (and do).

    The only exception would probably be if you want to be an UBERS necro.
    Hello Zarni, nice to meet you.

    One doesnt get Beast to "telefrag" things, but rather to get first corpse faster and kill bosses/tought guys. Once one have gotten good merc gear and 125fcr on self, there is no better way to increase killing speed, but to make the first corpse to appear faster. Also, there is Baal in the end of WSK... Hoto, one the other hand, is nothing I couldnt get from other slots. In fact, Hoto would be a waste of weapon slot for me, it barely beats pre-buff Leorik.

    It also surprises me to know that most choose hoto over wizardspike, in case they dont or cant get Beast. How +3 CE bonus and tiny +10 dex can beat extra 10fcr, huge allres, mana and regeneration AND potential 4-mod jewel? I dont get this...
    Last edited by Black Lotus; 12-10-2013 at 10:12.

  3. #23
    IncGamers Member Holy Dude's Avatar
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    Re: Arm of Kig Leoric vs. Beast Berserker Axe

    Just curious, why do I need to worry about HoTo's +skills because of Corpse Explosion? Correct me if i'm wrong, but all it does is increase the radius right?

  4. #24
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    Re: Arm of Kig Leoric vs. Beast Berserker Axe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Dude View Post
    Just curious, why do I need to worry about HoTo's +skills because of Corpse Explosion? Correct me if i'm wrong, but all it does is increase the radius right?
    That's right. Keep in mind that a larger radius makes the skill a more powerful killing tool in many areas of the game. Higher Corpse Explosion is better, and the way most people play summoners involves maxing Corpse Explosion and using it to kill the vast majority of enemies. The undead army is mainly there to keep monsters off the necromancer and to help get corpses for initiating Corpse Explosion chains.

    So more +skills for Corpse Explosion are dandy and all, but at some point, the radius is probably big enough that other concerns become more important. With great gear, it's quite easy to get Corpse Explosion well over level 30, while mainly focusing equipment on summoning skills. A level 38 Corpse Explosion does get a bigger radius than a level 35 Corpse Explosion, but I contend that 35 is plenty already.

  5. #25
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    Re: Arm of Kig Leoric vs. Beast Berserker Axe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Dude View Post
    Just curious, why do I need to worry about HoTo's +skills because of Corpse Explosion? Correct me if i'm wrong, but all it does is increase the radius right?
    Well, you also get increased bone armor thing and cheaper teleport .

  6. #26
    IncGamers Member NoisemakerArrow's Avatar
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    Re: Arm of Kig Leoric vs. Beast Berserker Axe

    Leoric also gives 2 to Bone Skills, so ultimately the skill difference is 2 Skeleton, 2 Mastery, 1 Mage for Leoric vs +2 Curses for HOTO.

    I don't think CTA is necessary on a necro. My summoner uses Leoric and +3 Summoning Darkforce Spawn (+3 Boneflame or just +3 Magic Head would also work) for raising the skeletons, then switches to HOTO/Homunculus. I have 68, 75, 75, 68 resists, and once I change to an Um rune in Homunculus instead of a diamond, I'll have 71, 75, 75, 71. I could at that point add a resist all SC and max my resists (my Mara's is 28 and my HOTO is 37, but I doubt I'll be able to upgrade those very easily). I don't need more life than I have (1090). I have max block, 18% DR, Bone Armour, and, if needed, I could use Oak Sage for more life.

    What is the point of your necro? Don't you want some MF on him? I use Chance Guards, Enigma, Harlequin, Mara's, Goldwrap, War Travs, MF/LR ring, MF ring, as well as Gheed's and some MF SCs next to Summoning GCs. 424 MF in total with level 38 Skeletons and Mastery.

    The upgrade I want most is Infinity. Right now my merc is using a 258% ED/6 Critical Strike eth CV Insight, and Infinity will provide similar damage to the merc, or perhaps lower, since I'll probably be making the Infinity in a Thresher (eth, but it still has lower damage than CV), but the Conviction will make my army hit every time, my mages do more damage, and my CE do more damage. I also won't need to take up as much stash space with merc CB gear for bosses.

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