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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member Clavdivs's Avatar
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    The need for map editor

    I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, fully aware that posts like this were made a number of times before, have decided to re-post an article made by a divine long-time collaborator on past mods. Divine being declares that this article is well put, and deserve a viewing on this forum also:



    Original article made by Snakefist at official forums:

    [Author is a game dev/modder for over 20 years]

    When Blizzard made SC2, and released powerful and complex Galaxy editor - which is constantly becoming more powerful, also enabling bnet2 features for custom games, campaigns etc., my first thought was 'they are creating a world-builder, all those perfect and near-perfect custom made maps are going to have a creating-kit which is very powerful, and (fairly) easy to use, supported by Blizzard and sometimes even sold by Blizzard.'

    It took a while to bear any actual fruits, but here it is now:


    A WoW-like game, put into a SC universe (sic), 8 classes, MMO, focusing on PvE and 3vs3 PvP - read at the site yourselves!

    How much such a project cost? 80,000$ on KickStarter.

    People would probably do it for free, but getting *some* money is the motivation for devs - after initial fun and hype and praise, it gradually becomes a burden, and becomes a second job (or first). I've seen many great projects fail because lack of motivation.

    THAT IS WHY WE NEED AN EXISTING MAP EDITOR RELEASED TO PUBLIC
    How much we (the community) payed for the game? Close to 1 billion dollars. There are, supposedly, over 12 million of us. 80,000$ is nothing compared to fanbase - some people gave thousands dollars for items.

    - Would I personally fund a project I find promising with, say, 10$?
    - Yes.

    - Would 8,000 others do?
    - 100% sure that they would.

    Instead of pleading for SF mode, someone could develop it already, Instead of pleading for no-AH, someone could develop it already. Instead of waiting for promised PvP, it could be done by someone long time ago, in many tastes. So could be other things people are asking for.

    All what is needed is the public version of the editor.


    The text below is a reply to a usual example of what misuse of editor would be - a map full of monsters with used for abuse of exp gained and AH. As it is also written well, The God decided to re-post it too.




    I don't know how much experience with modding/developing you have, but AH can be changed to be mod-specific. Both the AH and map-editor would have to be heavily modified, no doubt about that. A work may take few months, maybe more. But more importantly, it's doable. There are 6 different AH's at the moment. There is an editor which probably needs to be modified, but it does exist. It requires work, but it's doable.

    As for the loot, from my own experience, both loot tables and drop probabilities, as well as affix values and other item-related stuff were editable in d2, so I have a reason to think that those are already part of editor developers use.

    I have no illusion of user-created content - to put it bluntly, 90% of it is a crap. 1% is a pearl. Rest is good, but not perfect - still it is liked by some people. We are not talking about that 90% which has very little chance to be played at all (but yet have high chances to be created). We are talking about 1%, compare it to DOTA in WC3 if you like.

    ----------
    Chess 2.0
    ----------

    An example of noob-developed content

    1. Queen should be more powerful! Queen should be able to jump over figures, as the Knight does!
    ...realizing that White Queen can take Black in the first move...

    2. Queen cannot take another Queen!
    ...considers option where Queen also can use Knight movement pattern, with various conclusions..
    ...considers the possibility that Queen is taken after all...

    3. There are various ways to resurrect Queen, like replacing other figures with it
    ...goes on with ruining the game


    There is, of course, no comparison between elaborate and perfect game like chess and D3 (though adding AH to the chess seems promising).

    Point being, map as you described is destined to be made, but it wouldn't be part of regular game - just as the mod mentioned isn't part of SC2 standard games.

    We are talking about endless possibilities, like:
    - Open world
    - Every mini-game suggested, like endless dungeon and waves of creeps
    - Wide variety of random side quests
    - Better balance of skills
    - Better itemization - fact that Blizzard is working on it doesn't guarantee success
    - Better AH (yup, many people found it lacking, or would accept another take on it)
    - Better multiplayer
    - Better endgame
    - More variety of virtually everything - such as monster design, graphical improvement (imagine DarkD3 with the ability to change more than just texture/lighting locally)

    If we take a look, for example, Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim mods, some of user-created content is at least on the level with Bethsheda's work. Most importantly, many modders collaborate and allow including of their works in more comprehensive mods.

    Many games today have mods, and powerful editors included in the game was Blizzard's trademark - with WoW and D2/3 as exceptions. While it is understandable for WoW, absence of editor from D3 is just... weird.



    The God will reply to all comments for this article as if it was his own. The God has original author's permission to do so.

  2. #2
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: The need for map editor

    When a game gets old or just comes out bad mods keep it alive.

    D3 doesn't have them but it should. I agree completely.

  3. #3
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    Re: The need for map editor

    They won't do it because console.

  4. #4
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    Re: The need for map editor

    Bethesdas games are on console too.

    They wont do it because 'Blizzard is always right'. How could you mere mortals even think you could make something more perfect than the creations of Blizzard? Blasphemy.

    Obviously not all of BLizzard that thinks tis way, considering SC2, but in D3 development, there seemed to be a lot of 'we know what is best for you, options are bad mkay'.
    I actually like developers who are confident they are right, and have a clear vision they follow. It is their game to make, not ours.
    The same attitude sucks though, when you do not have a clear vision, but still think you are right.

    Anyway, mods for D3 would be interesting. I doubt I would ever play any - nor did I for D2, TL2 etc. - but it can surely increase longevity for a lot of people.

  5. #5
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    Re: The need for map editor

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    Bethesdas games are on console too.

    They wont do it because 'Blizzard is always right'. How could you mere mortals even think you could make something more perfect than the creations of Blizzard? Blasphemy.

    Obviously not all of BLizzard that thinks tis way, considering SC2, but in D3 development, there seemed to be a lot of 'we know what is best for you, options are bad mkay'.
    They definitely had that attitude pre-release, when they responded to the "color controversy" by making fun of everyone who said the game looked too bright by creating whimseyshire. So, they got feedback and made fun of it...

    Now, 15 months later, Jay Wilson fired from the project and others reassigned, I think they are a little less cocky. The Whimseyshire debacle is still fresh in mind though.

  6. #6
    IncGamers Member Clavdivs's Avatar
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    Re: The need for map editor

    The God agrees that developers should have their pride. When The God participated in most successful divine mod up to date (Snake was leader, and we used different names then), Snake acted pretty reserved and ruled forums with an iron fist - he used to read each post carefully, but not participated in meaningless debates, nor included or excluded anything because plebeian request.

    However, the strict but wise dictatorship was in order, because the illustrious leader didn't make mistakes - balance, the most important quality of mod in question was near perfect, and problems were dealt with quickly and orderly.

    How to act when your product is fundamentally flawed, majority of input is bad and the player base is shrinking on a daily level? The company lost divine thrust, and so is the dev team. Virtually all measures made so far were percepted by the divine being as band-aids, and they proved as such.

    The editor request, however, will not be a band-aid. It is a perfectly normal and legitimate, and can even help the dev team to keep their pride.

    EDIT: The God finds whole Chess 2.0 idea, along with worthy AH addition, hilarious. And sadly, similar to some things which happened in real life

  7. #7
    IncGamers Member Dogbert's Avatar
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    Re: The need for map editor

    modding for d3? you can't mod this game. it's even online play only.
    if they wanted mods like we had in d2 they wouldn't make it impossible to mod. sorry :(

    but i would also like to see a map editor. even tl2 has one and it's great. the chances of ever getting one though...
    Last edited by Dogbert; 18-08-2013 at 22:39.

  8. #8
    IncGamers Member Clavdivs's Avatar
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    Re: The need for map editor

    Divine being agrees that modding in the way of modifying D2patch.mpq is indeed impossible, but can be done with official support of editor, similar to SC2. The God is beyond optimism and pessimism too, and doubts we will ever get one - which is not a reason to abandon the idea as such

  9. #9
    D3 General & D2 Newcomer Moderator
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    Re: The need for map editor

    What an obnoxious posting style.
    OH PLEASE HELP I found out why Waldo's always hiding he did so many horrible things please let me in he's righ

  10. #10
    IncGamers Member Dogbert's Avatar
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    Re: The need for map editor

    Hey you are talking to Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. When talking to a god one must tread carefully.

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