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  1. #21
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flux View Post
    One thing Lanth mentions is that gear had to be planned out in previous games in the series. Well, not planned out necessarily, but you benefited from logical and rational and intelligent distribution of equipment properties. There's nothing of that in D3 where every single stat (except MF/GF hard cap?) is always better if it's moar. Any amount more = better. It's a very casual-friendly style, which requires no planning or deeper strategy to the item game, and I can certainly see the appeal in some ways, but it's clearly lacking in complexity.
    I've thought about this many times, and I completely agree, which is a big reason why the item hunt in Diablo 2 is far more satisfying than in Diablo 3. Optimizing gear in D3 is simply getting more of select stats. Optimizing gear in D2 is a matter of having your entire set of gear mesh together to get the optimal benefits.

    It won't happen, but break points would be a welcome change. Instead of attack speed being a percent increase, it could be a stat with the break points clearly labeled. Getting your attack speed stat up to 100 would give a 10% increase. Get it up to 200 you get another 10% increase, etc.

  2. #22
    IncGamers Member SnickerSnack's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    What is possibly the root of the itemization problem is that MOAR is always better on every stat. I want STR/CC/CD/IAS on all four of my barbs amulet/ring/ring/gloves. There is no reason not to get all four stats on all four slots. So, there's no choice to be made. I just use the best items I find or buy the best ones I can afford on the GAH.

    Yesterday, someone in [General] asked for advice upgrading his SNS wizard's gear. I don't play wizard much, but I had recently read some guides and geared up my wiz for SNS. The tornadoes from Energy Twister have break points, so I looked over his gear and told him that the 6% IAS on his amulet wasn't doing him much good, and that he should replace it with one that had the same (or better) CC/CD but that would give better eHP. Yep, the presence of the BP created a situation where having IAS on his amulet was not optimal. I told him that if he wanted the next BP, he either needed to get an Andariel's Visage and get an amulet with 7% or 8% IAS (depending on the IAS on the helm) or he needed to get a faster wand.

    Break points might not be the only way to cause this kind of decision making, but decision making is largely (entirely?) what's missing from D3 items.

  3. #23
    IncGamers Member Mackan's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flux View Post
    One thing Lanth mentions is that gear had to be planned out in previous games in the series. Well, not planned out necessarily, but you benefited from logical and rational and intelligent distribution of equipment properties. There's nothing of that in D3 where every single stat (except MF/GF hard cap?) is always better if it's moar. Any amount more = better. It's a very casual-friendly style, which requires no planning or deeper strategy to the item game, and I can certainly see the appeal in some ways, but it's clearly lacking in complexity.

    D1 and D2 had hard caps on lots of stuff, and breakpoints which worked in similar fashion. You needed to plan your dex or str for equipment requirements, you needed to plan your resistance and not waste it by going too high, and with breakpoints there was a big reward for knowing how the game worked and how many points in various things were good, better, or unnecessary.

    I don't miss breakpoints per se, but I do miss a lot of the complexity and subtlety of the item game in previous titles that's not seen in D3. One reason we all complain about D3 only valuing CC, CD, IAS, mainstat and RA is because there's no hard cap and very little diminishing returns on those. The more you have the more good they do for you, so there's no reason to try to get any other stats.

    The following is a thought experiment more than a feature request:

    Imagine if D3 had heavy diminishing returns on CC and CD above 40% and 400%, and RA above 400. You could push those figures higher, but the benefit was reduced considerably. Would that by default raise the value of other stats? Would players start to find more value in things like LoH, chance to stun, "reduces CC effect" mods, etc? Those mods aren't that great compared to another 40% CD or 8% IAS, etc. But if that 40% CD only gave you 6% more due to diminishing returns, other mods would become much more viable, and gear valuations would change considerably... ?
    I see you are trying your best to lift up issues that D3 suffers from, but in a diplomatic way. You even suggest imaginary improvements. But let's face it, D3 is for the causal player as you also said. Most depth and mechanics that require even slightest thinking have been removed. And this won't change. The D3 team doesn't sync with these kind of ideas. They will just thank you for your feedback, and that's it.

  4. #24
    IncGamers Member Dogbert's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackan View Post
    I see you are trying your best to lift up issues that D3 suffers from, but in a diplomatic way. You even suggest imaginary improvements. But let's face it, D3 is for the causal player as you also said. Most depth and mechanics that require even slightest thinking have been removed. And this won't change. The D3 team doesn't sync with these kind of ideas. They will just thank you for your feedback, and that's it.
    sadly this is the situation we find ourselves in. like it or not.

  5. #25
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    I might be the only one, but I don't miss breakpoints, and I don't miss planning out my gear. I never found what I wanted anyway.

    Imagine if D3 had heavy diminishing returns on CC and CD above 40% and 400%, and RA above 400. You could push those figures higher, but the benefit was reduced considerably. Would that by default raise the value of other stats? Would players start to find more value in things like LoH, chance to stun, "reduces CC effect" mods, etc? Those mods aren't that great compared to another 40% CD or 8% IAS, etc. But if that 40% CD only gave you 6% more due to diminishing returns, other mods would become much more viable, and gear valuations would change considerably... ?
    It would raise the relative value of the non-diminished stats versus the diminished ones beyond the diminishing point, but the problem is, the stats other than the ones you mentioned don't provide as significant of a boost in actual gameplay value. It's not all about the relative worth, there's the question of absolute worth: regenerating 200-300 life per second doesn't help that much against enemies that hit for 3-9k a shot and attack in bulk. Stacking life regen, thorns, resist element, or what have you just doesn't pay remotely similar dividends, even if one were hard-capped out.

    Such an approach would simply nerf players with minimal gains. We'd still need whatever the new quinfecta is for whatever new builds are created from the rubble of the old, there'd be less chance of finding them because everyone would necessarily kill slower, we'd still toss dozens of items to find one good one, we'd still be underwhelmed by the replay value. Nothing changes, in-game life just gets harder.

    Want to make a dent? Change skills to either not use weapon damage, or to use a less than 100% portion of the weapon damage.

  6. #26
    IncGamers Member Mackan's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
    sadly this is the situation we find ourselves in. like it or not.
    Well, I guess I am coming off as a bit too pessimistic, since my IP was banned by the admins here after that post. I guess it's a sign I should back off. :/

  7. #27
    IncGamers Member Dogbert's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackan View Post
    Well, I guess I am coming off as a bit too pessimistic, since my IP was banned by the admins here after that post. I guess it's a sign I should back off. :/
    i have seen worse pessimistic posts even from myself. but speaking of breakpoints i would like to have them back. it was easier when you knew you needed exacly two shael runes to reach the sweet spot for ias then you could devote the rest of the sockets to damage. things like that. i kinda liked it.

  8. #28
    IncGamers Member Darkflight's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    The main issue I have with the Diablo 2 style breakpoints was that in order to understand them some tech-guru had to essentially reverse engineer the game. That's not deep or complex gameplay, that is really bad design.

  9. #29
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackan View Post
    Well, I guess I am coming off as a bit too pessimistic, since my IP was banned by the admins here after that post. I guess it's a sign I should back off. :/
    Your IP was not banned due to your post. If it was banned at all, it was due to a spammer using it. But I doubt anyone here did that anyway. We do not ban IP's lightly, FYI. Certainly not for a negative post. If that were the case there would only be a handful of IP's allowed on this forum. We would have banned most of them between 5-15-12 and about March of this year.
    Rose: You're an alien? You sound like you're from the North.
    Doctor: LOTS of planets have a North!!!

  10. #30
    IncGamers Member Mackan's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacar92 View Post
    Your IP was not banned due to your post. If it was banned at all, it was due to a spammer using it. But I doubt anyone here did that anyway. We do not ban IP's lightly, FYI. Certainly not for a negative post. If that were the case there would only be a handful of IP's allowed on this forum. We would have banned most of them between 5-15-12 and about March of this year.
    Thanks for the clarification. I have dynamic IP and the 2 I tested (very different IPs) were banned, right after I made that post. It's a rather strange coincidence. Anyway, it's never happened before. My IPs now seem to work again. Thanks again.

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