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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    It depends.
    There is two types of complexity imo.

    A complex system that is complex because it is deep. It is simple when you look at it from the outside, but when you get into it it offers lots of depth.

    A complex system that is complex because it's broad. It looks complex from the outside, but when you get into it it offers no depth. It is designed to look complex rather than be complex.

    First is good, second is bad. Second is so much easier to design than the first of course :/

    Not arguing that breakpoints are one or the other (depends on the design), just that complexity for the sake of complexity isn't necessarily good.

    (Edit: TLDR: what Yovargas said already...)

  2. #12
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    They were an artifact of 2D technology
    They're not. They're a product of apathy / an overwhelming desire for consistency.

    AttackSpeed = 6.05
    ASpeedCount = ASpeedCount + DemicalPart(AttackSpeed)
    If ASpeedCount >= 1: ASpeedCount = ASpeedCount - 1 // And then when the animation function is called, add +1 frame to it

    Like it's going to look terrible alternating between a .48 second attack and a .44 second attack...

    A simpler but more random method is just rolling a random number against the decimal part to tell if an animation is slower or not.

  3. #13
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Just document the feature properly. Then if you're confused about it I hope you all the best in the traffic lights.

  4. #14
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greizer View Post
    Btw if you find breakpoints 'confusing', it's a wonder you haven't been hit by a car while crossing the road. Blizz really needs to stop catering to the 'grannies' out there and re-introduce a learning curve to their games. Confusion is not a thing to be feared but embraced; it's the first stage of learning a new systemor mechanic.
    The fact that the game didn't even tell you there were breakpoints and that you had to reference sites like these to know them, tells you it is confusing. Without someone's hard work testing a 1% increase at a time and measuring how many shots they got off in a second, no one would have even known. A system in which things do not do what they say they do is not deep, it is confusing.

    Breakpoints were a result of graphic limitations, not a positive that needs to be brought back.

  5. #15
    Administrator Flux's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    One thing Lanth mentions is that gear had to be planned out in previous games in the series. Well, not planned out necessarily, but you benefited from logical and rational and intelligent distribution of equipment properties. There's nothing of that in D3 where every single stat (except MF/GF and MS hard capped) is always better if it's moar. Any amount more = better. It's a very casual-friendly style, which requires no planning or deeper strategy to the item game, and I can certainly see the appeal in some ways, but it's clearly lacking in complexity.

    D1 and D2 had hard caps on lots of stuff, and breakpoints which worked in similar fashion. You needed to plan your dex or str for equipment requirements, you needed to plan your resistance and not waste it by going too high, and with breakpoints there was a big reward for knowing how the game worked and how many points in various things were good, better, or unnecessary.

    I don't miss breakpoints per se, but I do miss a lot of the complexity and subtlety of the item game in previous titles that's not seen in D3. One reason we all complain about D3 only valuing CC, CD, IAS, mainstat and RA is because there's no hard cap and very little diminishing returns on those. The more you have the more good they do for you, so there's no reason to try to get any other stats.

    The following is a thought experiment more than a feature request:

    Imagine if D3 had heavy diminishing returns on CC and CD above 40% and 400%, and RA above 400. You could push those figures higher, but the benefit was reduced considerably. Would that by default raise the value of other stats? Would players start to find more value in things like LoH, chance to stun, "reduces CC effect" mods, etc? Those mods aren't that great compared to another 40% CD or 8% IAS, etc. But if that 40% CD only gave you 6% more due to diminishing returns, other mods would become much more viable, and gear valuations would change considerably... ?
    --Flux
    The Diablo 1, 2, & 3 Wiki! (Under construction.)


  6. #16
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    Quote Originally Posted by capnlarge View Post
    The fact that the game didn't even tell you there were breakpoints and that you had to reference sites like these to know them, tells you it is confusing. Without someone's hard work testing a 1% increase at a time and measuring how many shots they got off in a second, no one would have even known.
    i like to know what games you play comes with encyclopedic tool tips and manual. dark souls (a 3d game, BTW) never mentioned that resistance was generally useless nor dex can give faster casting speed at cetain breakpoints. players initally thought Blackheart was a god tier character in the early life cycle of Marvel v Capcom 2, but once they stated they play the game more. they discovered he was merely high to mid tier. the fact of the matter is designers don't completely know all the arcane details or what their game will do once it's in the wild and players begin to explore, exploit and break their games which can in turn extend the life cycle of some games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greizer View Post
    Blizz really needs to stop catering to the 'grannies' out there and re-introduce a learning curve to their games. Confusion is not a thing to be feared but embraced; it's the first stage of learning a new systemor mechanic.
    i wouldn't count on it and it's fairly common. the devs of DMC (unlike the devs of DmC3) admitted they couldn't figure out or perform high level game play, so they simplified the game because "it might confuse the noobs". however, unlike d3 players, DmC players stayed away from that in droves.

  7. #17
    IncGamers Member nurman's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    On moves like Energy Twister the breakpoints do work, but on general moves like Cleave, the current system certainly works better.

    The old breakpoints & hard caps do, in a way give me a warm and fuzzy feeling, but then I recall how much metagaming was involved in gearing when I, for example, geared a lightning sorceress in D2.

  8. #18
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    I miss breakpoints.

    FPA, FHR, FCR, FBR, Block Rate, Resists, Deadly Strike, Crushing Blow, Str / Dex for equipping (or Vit if going for max damage). All of these had minimums and maximums that (sort of) changed depending on what character and even what skills of that character changed. It was a much deeper system, although it still could be vastly improved. Energy was useless for most characters, and most characters performed optimal (in SC) with their stats just meeting equipment requirements. A few items were too good and most characters gravitated towards using them (grief, infinity somewhere, enigma) and that created a bit of stale feeling. Attack rating was not available in as many ways as there should have been. The secondary uses of the stats (damage for str, blocking/ar/ranged damage for dex, nothing for energy) could have definitely been improved to give the player a more compelling choice.

    For the people complaining about not knowing about the breakpoints, yes a way to view the stuff in-game would be welcome. But it also doesn't mean that the system is automatically bad if ya didn't figure it out. You could have noticed yourself that adding x amount of fcr didn't make you attack faster, but it still should have been included in a kind of tool-tip of some sort. That and the runewords/recipes you had to go look fore, but wouldn't you still take those in D3?

    For the breakpoints being complicated and not deep, well how are they complicated? You attack X fast with this range of speeds, if you exceed that range you attack Y% faster? The items and the skills and characters that use it are the part that made it deep. Planning a Wolfbarb is about the most fun thing you can do, it is just a shame that one phase blade runeword stands head and shoulders above everything else...

  9. #19
    IncGamers Member Dogbert's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    It would be good if breakpoints returned.

  10. #20
    IncGamers Member Clavdivs's Avatar
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    Re: Do you miss breakpoints?

    The God does miss the breakpoints, but for a different reason.

    The breakpoints did made diminished returns for key properties of character - IAS, FHR, FRW etc. The God declares that diminishing, or even linear advancement in CC% would benefit game greatly. The current system of adding percentages one over another not linear, and is a sign of mathematical weakness! This also applies to IAS%, once defined through breakpoints to the point where there is no practical use of massing more, to current non-linear and corrupted further by adding raw attacks/second system.

    [The God pauses a while to wonder]

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