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  1. #31
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    Very thorough, onderduiker. I suppose stating the gains the way you do is more exact, too.
    In terms of thoroughness, Monster Resistances.xls has made short work of any questions regarding monster life, resistance and immunity in Hell in the four years since I compiled it: I am not combing through page after page of the Arreat Summit, or any similar resource.

    As for being exact, the number of hits in my table are still rounded up, but it expresses the improvement in terms of DPS or kill speed rather than percentage reduction in number of hits. As such, you didn't actually miscalculate (sorry about that): reducing the number of hits by 50% and doubling kill speed are the same thing, but the latter gives a much clearer indication of the improvement (particularly as the percentage increases: reducing the number of hits by 75% quadruples kill speed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    Then they could use a 20% CB weapon (WF w/ Ber, Grief), and hit 80%.
    Grief has 20% Deadly Strike, not Crushing Blow. Otherwise, I agree that both melee and ranged attackers probably wouldn't strive for 100% Chance of Crushing Blow, and both could equip at least 50% without sacrificing much, if anything (although I'm not sure I'd replace Laying of Hands for another 5-10% from Blood gloves).

    The thinking that Crushing Blow is primarily a melee attack modifier is also influenced by the fact there are a multitude of melee weapons with it, but it only appears on bows or crossbows that have been socketed with Ber Runes (including the Wrath Rune Word). You can still have up to 95% without having it on the weapon, but that requires Rattlecage Unique Gothic Plate (25%) and Goblin Toe Unique Light Plated Boots (25%).

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    It's amazing how much better WF really is than its alternatives. Once, I get a chance, I'll redo the math.
    When making comparisons, bear in mind that chance to hit and attack rate also affect kill speed. Also bear in mind that, at least against Act bosses and other single strong enemies, your Desert mercenary may also apply Crushing Blow consistently (depending on how he's equipped): I don't think this is an argument against your Amazon equipping CB as well, but it may be a deciding factor between two set-ups with similar kill speed but varying CB, attack rate and chance to hit.

  2. #32
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Sweet spreadsheet dude. I'm already crunching some numbers. It seems on Hell difficulty, the average life of monsters is
    9,481 and the average physical resists are 31.5% (hey, I was pretty close), 29% if you exclude immunes.

    Oh yea, my bad on the Grief.

    As far as blood gloves go, it'll of course depend on the benefit you garner via +350%. It looks like Demons make up about 35.7% of monsters. The +% damage modifiers totaled +1205% for the aforementioned Zon and +1905% for the Pally. So in that case, the Zon gets a +9.57% increase in damage output and the Pally gets +6.23%. This is further benefited by Amp/Decrep, not to mention like CB it's most useful against bosses, which are Demons.

    Case study:
    Zon (4742 dam w/ 70%-80% CB) against Baal (493,701 life)
    Hits w/ 70% CB: 27
    Hits w/ 80% CB: 25
    Hits w/o CB: 105

    So, that extra 10% CB only yields about a 2.86% damage increase where CB should be functioning best. I guess this goes to show how much CB is really affected by diminishing returns. Does that math look good?

  3. #33
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Your figures for average life, damage resistance and percentage of demons are probably in the ballpark, but they don't take into account that monsters don't always have the same chance of spawning, they don't always spawn with the same frequency or in the same numbers when they do, and the number of random Champion and Unique monsters that spawn varies from area to area. However, calculating more accurate averages would be quite complicated...

    Baal also has DR 50%, although casting Decrepify would reduce this to 0% for the purpose of your case study. Since he's a boss, Crushing Blow damage is halved to 1/16 when applied by a ranged attack: however, based on my own calculations it would still take 32 hits to kill him with 100% Chance of Crushing Blow, so based on the results of yours with lower percentages this hasn't been taken into account.

    Aside from that, I'm not sure how to calculate hits to kill with varying CB percentages given that it varies depending on the success or failure of all previous rolls: for example, if CB is applied by the first hit then CB damage applied by the second is ~28,631; otherwise, it's (493701-4742)/16 or ~30,560. I haven't studied maths since high school and probability was never my strong suit, so there may be a formula or shortcut I don't know (or remember) that simplifies things, but on the face of it for X number of hits there are 2 X possible outcomes, so after just 25 hits that's 33,554,432.

  4. #34
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    onder, one way to simplify cb damage is to just assume that the boss has an average of 50% life, see what the cb damage is at that level of boss life and then add that as a flat damage to your regular damage. not too accurate but good enough imo.

    In fact good enough that it shows that cb on bowas is generally a waste of time: both 45/120 helm and war travs offer more dps than their CB laden alternative choices, when against hell Diablo.

  5. #35
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by onderduiker View Post
    Aside from that, I'm not sure how to calculate hits to kill with varying CB percentages given that it varies depending on the success or failure of all previous rolls.
    You're right that it varies, but, for instance, a 1 in 10 chance to take 1/8th of power is essentially equivalent to 1/80th of life on average. And that's what we're after.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    In fact good enough that it shows that cb on bowas is generally a waste of time: both 45/120 helm and war travs offer more dps than their CB laden alternative choices, when against hell Diablo.
    And here we see it again, people believing CB to be a waste of time because it's hard to quantify. In regards to the pure Strafezon, which has been the conversation so far, a 45/120 is fairly moot, because all the IAS really doesn't aid you that much in terms of attack speed (it does help on GA or Multi, of course). But the extra +120% for a build doing +1205% damage, is only going to give you a real damage increase of around 9.2%.

    The DS on Guillame's is affected by critical strike. I typically stop CS at slvl 11, because that's when it stop giving more than 1 point per level. DS, in this case, does about 6.3% real damage increase (15%[DS]*(1-58%[CS])=6.3%.

    Taking a look at Crushing Blow. We'll take the aforementioned 9,481 life monster, not because he's every case, but our best guess at an average. Then we'll take him to players 8 (42,664.5 life). This gives him +450%, but cuts CB's effect by the same 450%. I'm doing this, because the effect will be the same on average as players 1, but the rounding error from distribution will be less of a factor. I'm further taking a percentage of the last hit that kills to get it more accurate.

    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    42664.5 37507.70625 32401.0479947917 27344.0378059534 22336.1929939511 17377.0355620655 12466.0921607676 7602.89404253792 2786.97701712435 -1982.11859276436
    42664.5 37922.5 33180.5 28438.5 23696.5 18954.5 14212.5 9470.5 4728.5 -13.5

    This particular instance shows with and without the CB to effectively kill the same time. But, on average, it takes 8.584 hits with CB and 8.997 without. That's an improvement of 4.8% real damage increase.

    So together with DS (+6.3%) & CB (+4.8%), you get a total of 11.1%, which beats a 45/120's 9.2%.

    You can also socket it with a 40/15, which should give you around 3%, yielding a 14.1% increase. Not too shabby.

    Now, War Travs. You get an extra 20 average damage. That's 20*13.05=261 average damage. That's a 5.5% increase in damage. Not too shabby. But we've already pointed out that 15% DS (now from Gorerider) gives you 6.3%.

    Look at CB with the same scenario before, just 15% CB, not 35%.
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    42664.5 37744.73125 32845.4615364583 27966.6054467231 23108.0779240284 18269.7942660116 13451.6701232366 8653.62149772309 3875.56474148258 -882.583444940268
    42664.5 37922.5 33180.5 28438.5 23696.5 18954.5 14212.5 9470.5 4728.5 -13.5

    You're getting it in 8.8145 hits as opposed to 8.9972 hits. Again, this may sound weird to say, but as cases approach infinite, the averages will approach these numbers. Higher life monsters will favor CB, lower life will favor no CB, statistically. So that's a 2.1% increase in real damage.

    So Goreriders give you 2.1%+6.3%, for an 8.4% increase as opposed to War Trav's 5.5%. But then again, no MF.

    There are, of course, many variables you could point to and say, "Hey, that's not counting this or that!" and you'd be right, but this fairly simple calculation shows how the cards lie before such variables.

  6. #36
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Wait, war travs give 5% damage? So your total damage is 400? Grief cant be made in bows last time i checked :P

    The other thing I disagree with is stopping crit strike that early. On a hybrid OK, but on a bowazon specialist i wouldn't do that.

    Also dont forget an extra 30 dex or frw a circlet could have and lower reqs than guillaume.

    Your build is also quite low on ED which makes gores better in comparison.

  7. #37
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    Wait, war travs give 5% damage? So your total damage is 400? Grief cant be made in bows last time i checked :P

    The other thing I disagree with is stopping crit strike that early. On a hybrid OK, but on a bowazon specialist i wouldn't do that.

    Also dont forget an extra 30 dex or frw a circlet could have and lower reqs than guillaume.

    Your build is also quite low on ED which makes gores better in comparison.
    Lol. No, I said War Travs gives you an 20 extra damage. Multiply that by your bonuses (+1205%)--like I said, this is referencing portions earlier in our conversation and includes stuff like fort, might, pride, etc. Then you 260 extra damage, which is 5.5% of 4,724. So, no, not quite Grief boots.

    You can stop critical strike a little later, but you probably don't want to go past slvl 16 at which point you hit 65%, which is 7% more than slvl 11. The DS would then yield you 5.25% as opposed to 6.3%, but we're still talking bigger bonuses from 40/15 Guillames (+13.1%) and Goreriders (+7.3%) as opposed to 45/120 helm (+9.2%) and War Travs (+5.5%).

    You can get 30 dex or FRW from a circlet, but you get 15 Str, 30% FHR, and defense from Guillames, which is arguably pretty close. Plus you don't have to give you first born son for Guillames.

    My build is utilizing a Might merc w/ Pride and Fort, with maxed skills and decent dexterity. Your helmet is the thing in question, but aside from that, there's not a whole lot else to do for ED. A 40/15 in the WF or some Steelrends won't be a game changer.

  8. #38
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    Lol. No, I said War Travs gives you an 20 extra damage. Multiply that by your bonuses (+1205%)--like I said, this is referencing portions earlier in our conversation and includes stuff like fort, might, pride, etc. Then you 260 extra damage, which is 5.5% of 4,724. So, no, not quite Grief boots.
    What zrk meant (if I understood correctly), if you count final damage at 4724 with 1200% ed, then your base damage must be around 363 which is grieflike, and seems impossible to achieve on a bowazon, especially without War Travs.

    Even if you have a lvl 99 bowazon with Windforce, your base average damage will be 291, which makes War Travs add almost 7%.

  9. #39
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Lol. No, I said War Travs gives you an 20 extra damage. Multiply that by your bonuses (+1205%)--like I said, this is referencing portions earlier in our conversation and includes stuff like fort, might, pride, etc. Then you 260 extra damage, which is 5.5% of 4,724. So, no, not quite Grief boots.
    But how does this 4724 come? if you divide it by 1205% you get a base damage of about 400. how is your bow doing 400 damage.
    I think the issue here is you didn't multiply the war trav dmg with crit and ds.
    You can stop critical strike a little later, but you probably don't want to go past slvl 16 at which point you hit 65%, which is 7% more than slvl 11. The DS would then yield you 5.25% as opposed to 6.3%, but we're still talking bigger bonuses from 40/15 Guillames (+13.1%) and Goreriders (+7.3%) as opposed to 45/120 helm (+9.2%) and War Travs (+5.5%).
    where do you put your points then. getting even 0.5 crit per level is a bigger damage boost compared to the alternative uses of skill points.

    You can get 30 dex or FRW from a circlet, but you get 15 Str, 30% FHR, and defense from Guillames, which is arguably pretty close. Plus you don't have to give you first born son for Guillames.
    if you want cost efficiency, i would argue for a 8fpa windforce multishot build that would use a 15 ias andariels visage. more bang for buck than a guillaume build i would argue. but it is a tangent.


    Andariel's visage with 15 ias jewel
    Highlord's / Atmas scarab
    Windforce with shael
    Treachery
    Laying of Hands
    Raven Frost
    Razortail / Nosferatu's
    Raven Frost
    War traveler



    My build is utilizing a Might merc w/ Pride and Fort, with maxed skills and decent dexterity. Your helmet is the thing in question, but aside from that, there's not a whole lot else to do for ED. A 40/15 in the WF or some Steelrends won't be a game changer.
    280 ed might with coh and andy.
    and 345 whoppin more if gettin pride.
    300 from fort
    570 from dex
    120+ laying of hands depending on how you value demons
    strafe bonus
    =1615+ strafe bonus~1800?

    Now if you want decent multishot dps you would have more from helm and fanat if faith



    In general i think there is a philosophical difference between us: i gear to have best multishot performance and look at strafe as more of a niche skill to use in the rare corridor situations, like if you look at my perfected setups:
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/s...etups-Compared
    And my video:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX1SBSzXT5g

  10. #40
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flayed One View Post
    What zrk meant (if I understood correctly), if you count final damage at 4724 with 1200% ed, then your base damage must be around 363 which is grieflike, and seems impossible to achieve on a bowazon, especially without War Travs.

    Even if you have a lvl 99 bowazon with Windforce, your base average damage will be 291, which makes War Travs add almost 7%.
    Dang it. My bad. I forgot I got that number 4,724 after factoring in DS and CS. Alright, let's just iron the specifics out right now.

    The build:
    clvl 90
    WF (Ber), Fort, Guillames (40/15), Atmas, RF, Rare Ring, LotH, Razortail, Goreriders, Might Merc w/ Pride, Demonlimb/CtA switch, Anni, Torch, (no max dam charms)
    Skills: slvl 16 CS, slvl 25 Strafe
    Stats: Str: 156 Dex: 300 Vit: Rest
    Base Damage: 277.125
    Enhanced Damage=300[dex]+300[fort]+210[might]+345[conc]+40[jewel]=+1,195%
    Including LotH (above)=+1,320%
    Damage before CS/DS=3,935
    Combined CS/DS=75.5
    Physical Damage=6,906 + 70 CB

    W/O Guillames:
    Damage before CS/DS=3,824
    Combined CS/DS=70.25
    Physical Damage=6,510 + 35 CB

    W/ 45/120 Circlet:
    Damage before CS/DS=4,157
    Combined CS/DS=70.25
    Damage before CS/DS=7,077 + 35 CB

    Life/Hits 1 2 3 4 5 6 Hits to Kill
    Guillame's
    Dam:6,906 CB 70
    42664.5 34928.9125 27343.7392013889 19906.0553835841 12612.99319557 5461.74055010055 -1550.45996059585 5.7788910972767
    45/120
    Dam:7,077 CB: 35
    42664.5 35172.70625 27753.7493836806 20406.9212646726 13131.520641266 5926.85307947593 -1207.7691032412 5.83071716030501
    45/120 no-CB
    Dam:7,077 CB:0
    42664.5 35587.5 28510.5 21433.5 14356.5 7279.5 202.5 6.83071716030501

    So, there you have it. Guillame's kills a little faster given your average enemy doing your average damage. About A complete lack of CB, on the other hand, is a 18% slower.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    In general i think there is a philosophical difference between us
    If the philosophy is one of Strafe vs. Multi, sure. But in terms of the discussion that's been going on before, we're just talking Strafe, so the IAS isn't of much value. I'm not trying to sound snarky, btw. If the decision is between hitting a higher break point and CB, it's probably going to lose out. At least against normal monsters. Against bosses (the title of the thread), CB will become very valuable.
    Last edited by Clervis; 18-07-2013 at 15:32.

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