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  1. #21
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    bowazons are just weak against bosses, no real way around it. get charged strike and go hybrid if you want an actual solution.
    Bowazons may be weaker against bosses but that doesn't mean impossible. It simply takes some patience and a bit of strategy to stay alive. If someone wants to buld a bowazon the best advice is to help them with the build. Not suggest another build all together.

    Go all bow if you want to, just know that it will be a little slower than other Zon builds.
    Rose: You're an alien? You sound like you're from the North.
    Doctor: LOTS of planets have a North!!!

  2. #22
    IncGamers Site Pal pharphis's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Has no one ever tried the lacerator/strafe combo I suggested before?

  3. #23
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
    Has no one ever tried the lacerator/strafe combo I suggested before?
    That sounds like it would work, especially with baal having 50 dr so essentially amp triples your dmg. But i would use GA instead of strafe unless you have a 4 fpa strafe setup, otherwise strafe doesnt hit a single target more often at all

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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
    Has no one ever tried the lacerator/strafe combo I suggested before?
    I just have my WWS and Atma's for Amp. That does sounds like a cool way to proc though.

    I could also try to source CB from my gear I suppose. Slap on a Guillame's, Gore's, and 2xBer in my WWS and I'll be at a solid 90% CB that I could use all the time (my IAS wouldn't really suffer either).

    So people say that CB is useless on ranged attackers, because the effect is halved. But consider this, CB favors the lower damage, faster attacker than the heavy hitters; that is, if it takes 10 hits to kill a monster, CB will be twice as effective against a monster that would otherwise take 5 hits. So, CB, despite its reputation is great for ranged attacks, maybe even more so than for heavy hitting melee attackers. Especially considering Bowazon's tactic of spread loading massive amounts of relatively lower damage attacks. I think this misnomer has become so popular due to everyone's Ubercentric approach to builds these days.

    Let me give you an example:
    Two characters:
    Zon doing 2K damage per hit, 100% CB
    Zealot doing 15K damage per hit, 100% CB
    Target:
    Minion of Destruction with 28K life.

    Without CB, Zon kills in 14 hits, Zealot kills in 4.
    With CB, Zon kills in 8 hits, Zealot kills in 3.

    Small spread, but as you can see, CB improves Zon by about +43%, as opposed to the Zealot's +25%.
    Let's mess with the HP:

    HP....Zon Benefit....Zealot Benefit
    10K........20%..............0%
    20K........30%..............50%
    30K........47%..............0%
    40K........50%..............33%
    50K........56%..............25%
    75K........63%..............40%
    100K........70%..............42%
    150K........76%..............50%
    200K........80%..............57%

    Of course, this doesn't take into effect things like physical resists, varying CB levels, boss CB penalties, amp/decrep, or players in game, but, and this is important, those variables effect both the Zon and Zealot fairly evenly. And that's with the ranged penalty!

    That being said, I think it's very plausible to say that CB does more for Bowazons than it does for melee builds.

  5. #25
    IncGamers Site Pal pharphis's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    That sounds like it would work, especially with baal having 50 dr so essentially amp triples your dmg. But i would use GA instead of strafe unless you have a 4 fpa strafe setup, otherwise strafe doesnt hit a single target more often at all
    I normally prefer harmony oon switch for vigor, however, I have tried the lacerator+strafe when running eldritch for many runs and I really liked it. Whether strafe is your main attack or not isn't really important, as it's only needed to amp everything in an area very quickly. 100% pierce makes things even more effective.


    As for using WWS, I think it's a meh weapon and if you're using it primarily for the small chance of amp you're better of with lacerator, and not wasting ammy slot on atma's imo.

  6. #26
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
    Has no one ever tried the lacerator/strafe combo I suggested before?
    It can work against a single target, but you cannot swap weapons until the Strafe sequence has actually finished so the target has to be distant enough to ensure that all the arrows haven't already reached it before swapping. This can be done by firing at the target while it is still visible in one of the top corners of the screen, or while it is off-screen but still within Strafe's 23 1/3 yard search radius.

    As you've experienced, it's much better against multiple targets with the benefit of piercing.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    That sounds like it would work, especially with baal having 50 dr so essentially amp triples your dmg. But i would use GA instead of strafe unless you have a 4 fpa strafe setup, otherwise strafe doesnt hit a single target more often at all
    Due to its 4 frame next delay Strafe can never attack a single target more than once every 5 frames, so it never averages more than 5 frames per attack. I've commented on this more fully in an earlier post in this thread, a later post and then this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    Let me give you an example:
    Two characters:
    Zon doing 2K damage per hit, 100% CB
    Zealot doing 15K damage per hit, 100% CB
    Target:
    Minion of Destruction with 28K life.
    Minions of Destruction have 39,873-44,509 (42,191 average) base life in Ladder and Single Player games in Hell, increasing to 179,428-200,292 (189,859 average) in eight player games. The Arreat Summit, and any source which copied from it, is systemically inaccurate for monster stats: it lists the minimum life for a level 92 Minion of Destruction for a non-Ladder Realm game and the maximum for a Ladder or SP game, and doesn't include the minion life bonus (*1.5 in Hell).

    I haven't done any number crunching of my own, but it's worth bearing in mind that negative damage resistance increases physical attack damage but not Crushing Blow damage (for example, cursing Baal with Amplify Damage will result in 150% physical attack damage, but it simply prevents his DR 50% from reducing CB damage without increasing it any further).

  7. #27
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
    As for using WWS, I think it's a meh weapon and if you're using it primarily for the small chance of amp you're better of with lacerator, and not wasting ammy slot on atma's imo.
    WWS is used for a few unique mods (DS, Amp, Sockets, Magic Arrows). But, if you want to emphasize the CB, like I'm suggesting, WWS can hook you up with 40% CB, which is huge. Slap on Gores, Guillames, & Blood Gloves, and you're sitting at 100% CB with decent gear!

    Quote Originally Posted by onderduiker View Post
    It can work against a single target, but you cannot swap weapons until the Strafe sequence has actually finished so the target has to be distant enough to ensure that all the arrows haven't already reached it before swapping. This can be done by firing at the target while it is still visible in one of the top corners of the screen, or while it is off-screen but still within Strafe's 23 1/3 yard search radius.

    As you've experienced, it's much better against multiple targets with the benefit of piercing.
    Yea, I gave this a try. I found it more frustrating against multiple targets (cows) because you have to do the switch more often with more characters. Didn't seem to me to be much of an alternative to Atma's.

    Quote Originally Posted by onderduiker View Post
    Minions of Destruction have 39,873-44,509 (42,191 average) base life in Ladder and Single Player games in Hell, increasing to 179,428-200,292 (189,859 average) in eight player games.
    Ok, got that from Arreat Summit. Regardless, I posted life ranging from 10K to 200K.

    Quote Originally Posted by onderduiker View Post
    I haven't done any number crunching of my own, but it's worth bearing in mind that negative damage resistance increases physical attack damage but not Crushing Blow damage (for example, cursing Baal with Amplify Damage will result in 150% physical attack damage, but it simply prevents his DR 50% from reducing CB damage without increasing it any further).
    That's true, but the argument was the difference in CB utility between high damage vs. low damage attackers, specifically a melee character and a Bowazon. That will affect CB effectiveness on the whole, but not in such a way that it will put CB more in the favor of the melee'er.

    Does it seem compelling to say that CB might be a bigger advantage for a Bowazon given this?:
    HP....Zon Benefit....Zealot Benefit
    10K........20%..............0%
    20K........30%..............50%
    30K........47%..............0%
    40K........50%..............33%
    50K........56%..............25%
    75K........63%..............40%
    100K........70%..............42%
    150K........76%..............50%
    200K........80%..............57%

  8. #28
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Having taken another look at that table I've realised the percentage improvement has been miscalculated: it should be 100 * ( (0% CB hits/100% CB hits) - 1), not 100 * (0% CB hits - 100% CB hits)/0% CB hits. If an Amazon killed in 14 hits without Crushing Blow and 7 hits with 100% CB, then after 14 hits she kills one monster with 0% CB and 2 with 100% CB: that's double or +100% (100 * ( (14/7) - 1) ), not +50% (100 * (14-7)/14).

    So for an Amazon applying 2,000 damage to a monster with 28,000 base life, killing them with 14 hits with 0% CB and 8 hits with 100% CB is an improvement of 75%, not ~43%, while the table should be as follows:

    Code:
    LIFE     2,000 RANGED                15,000 MELEE
             0% CB     100% CB   DPS     0% CB     100% CB   DPS
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    10,000    5 hits    4 hits    +25%    1 hit     1 hit     +0%
    20,000   10 hits    7 hits    +43%    2 hits    1 hit    +50%
    30,000   15 hits    8 hits    +88%    2 hits    2 hits    +0%
    40,000   20 hits   10 hits   +100%    3 hits    2 hits   +50%
    50,000   25 hits   11 hits   +127%    4 hits    3 hits   +33%
    I stopped at 50,000 life because, with the exception of some static units (Fire Towers, Mummy Sarcophagi and the like), hardly any normal monster outside the Pandemonium Event has more than 25,000 maximum base life in Ladder and Single Player Hell (a number of monsters within the Pandemonium Event have 23,808-29,760 (26,784 average) base life in Ladder games): this means hardly any minion monsters have more than 37,500, and hardly any random Champion or Unique monsters have more than 50,000. Thus any higher life values will normally only apply at higher player counts (which increases life but not CB damage) or to Super Unique or boss monsters (in which case CB damage is reduced from 1/4 to 1/8 with melee attacks and from 1/8 to 1/16 with ranged attacks).

    While this rough and ready example demonstrates the general principle that Crushing Blow damage becomes more significant as base life increases (or more accurately, hits to kill increases: both would kill any monster with 2,000 life or less in a single hit, making Crushing Blow irrelevant), and this applies to ranged attacks as well despite the penalty, there are a couple of caveats:

    • I haven't sat down and worked out whether 2,000 ranged and 15,000 melee damage is a reasonable comparison, particularly with 100% CB (this is also much easier to achieve with melee weapons without too much compromise or restriction, particularly a Fanatic Zealot).
    • Since we're dealing with average damage and average life, rounding up to the nearest hit is inaccurate.

    However, I don't think that will alter the underlying conclusion, only the degree to which it applies.

    My point about negative damage resistance was made because part of the impact of CB damage is determined by how it compares to attack damage: if attack damage increases but CB damage does not, then that reduces its impact. Your example applies to an Amazon applying 2,000 attack damage to a target with 28,000 life and DR 0%: if Decrepify is cast (DR -50%), it increases to 3,000 but CB damage is unchanged; if Amplify Damage is cast (DR -100%), it increases to 4,000 but CB damage remains unchanged.

    Code:
    DR %   DAMAGE   0% CB     100% CB    DPS
    ----------------------------------------
       0    2,000   14 hits    8 hits   +75%
    - 50    3,000   10 hits    6 hits   +67%
    -100    4,000    7 hits    5 hits   +40%
    But again, I don't think that alters the underlying conclusion, only the degree to which it applies in some cases.

  9. #29
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Very thorough, onderduiker. I suppose stating the gains the way you do is more exact, too. As far as Amp and Decrepify go, you'd have to further account for enemy physical resists, which is difficult, but tends to average around 33% on Hell mode. That, of course, diminishes amp/decrep's impact on the question, which is 'Does CB benefit low damage ranged characters more than higher damage melee characters?' Your corrections show that it generally does, given the assumptions.

    As far as builds go that will actually reach 100% CB, I wasn't suggesting one could or should go for 100%, I was just using it for a benchmark. It is conceivable, but probably not optimal. Both could wear Guillame's, Goreriders, and Blood crafted gloves, giving 60%. Then they could use a 20% CB weapon (WF w/ Ber, Grief), and hit 80%. Of course, one could use something like WWS (BerBer) and Death/LW to hit 100%.

    Given all of the above, I think it's safe to say that CB is very under-appreciated for Bowazons. Moreover, it's erroneously believed that CB is best utilized on other characters. In fact, as we've seen, CB helps Bowazon's more.

  10. #30
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Knowing this, I find it intriguing that this CB utility myth is so pervasive. Just try searching for 'Strafezon Guillame's." Of all the myriad Strafezon guides, very few mention Guillame's and those that do are typically only interested in its DS and usually dismiss it as low-level gear. Even more odd is the fact that Helms are typically considered such a cursory item for a Bowazon. Unless you're using 3x40/15s, everything else is kinda meh.

    I'm rethinking the standard Strafezon load-out into something more like this:

    WF (Ber)
    Guillame's Helm (IAS/Resists jewel)
    Fortitude
    Atma's
    Blood Crafted Gloves (+2 passive, 20 IAS, 10CB)
    Razortail
    GoreRiders
    RF/Rare ring
    Demon Limb on switch
    Might Merc w/ Pride

    This would net you up to 80% CB, with an effective DS/CS of 69% and dealing 4,742 damage per arrow at clvl 90 (before physical resists or Amp). So I guess 2K, while probably close to most pre-endgame builds, might be a bit of an underbid. It's amazing how much better WF really is than its alternatives. Once, I get a chance, I'll redo the math. I'm still pulling a 14,997 damage for a standard Grief Fanatic Zealot load-out (Grief, Fort, Phoenix, Guillames, GR, Highlords, Might merc w/ Reapers), before Decrepify. That seems to me to be the usual cookie cutter gear, although I haven't factored in damage charms.

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