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  1. #41
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    With a full dex build you could get 270 more ED
    And im not sure if you include strafe's ED in your calculations.
    You could get 280 ed might with coh and andy.
    You could get 55 ad from charms. That would tip the scales against cb a little bit at least.

    Also i suspect a 40/15 max jewel would do more than a ber in the bow.


    One thing to mention about bosses though is what kind of attack rate you are going to get with strafe.. It was around 6-7 fpa when I think i calculated it, making a guided arrow high speed setup mighty attractive. Especially diablo who is really dangerous to get strafelocked against with a low res build

  2. #42
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    It seems like you're really pushing hard to tip the scales against something that's generally a waste of time. To see the limit of CB's utility, let's look at Baal. We'll push it up to about 9K from 7K average damage (to reflect those suggestions) and keep the CB the same.

    The CB build will kill a players 8 Baal in 100 hits even.
    The pure physical build will take 247 hits.

    I don't deny that a pure Dex build utilizing only the most ridiculous max damage gear can't kill faster in certain situations. (Sorry for the triple negative) My point is purely that CB favors the lower damage build more than the higher damage even with a penalty. To dismiss that, is a pretty big oversight.

  3. #43
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    onder, one way to simplify cb damage is to just assume that the boss has an average of 50% life, see what the cb damage is at that level of boss life and then add that as a flat damage to your regular damage. not too accurate but good enough imo.
    With 100% Chance of Crushing Blow and 4,742 attack damage, Hell Baal with 493,701 base life and DR 0% (after Decrepify) takes 32 hits to kill and average CB damage is ~10,800 (I love spreadsheets at times like this); (493701/2) * 1/16 ~ 15,428.

    Similarly, Hell Diablo with 113,812 base life and DR -5% (after Decrepify, resulting in ~4,979 attack damage) takes 14 hits to kill and average CB damage is ~3,241; (113812/2) * 1/16 ~ 3,557.

    In both cases your method overestimates CB damage and you still came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it, and it looks as though it becomes more accurate as life decreases. However, unless the difference is emphatic there's a chance that the margin of error is still large enough that the balance might actually tip the other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    You're right that it varies, but, for instance, a 1 in 10 chance to take 1/8th of power is essentially equivalent to 1/80th of life on average. And that's what we're after.
    I'm not so sure about that... if you're suggesting that average CB damage is essentially CB damage at maximum life multiplied by its percentage chance, then with 100% chance average ranged CB damage against Baal would be 493701/16 or ~30,856, whereas in the example above it was only ~10,800. 90% or 95% chance would be in the same ball park.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    In regards to the pure Strafezon, which has been the conversation so far, a 45/120 is fairly moot, because all the IAS really doesn't aid you that much in terms of attack speed (it does help on GA or Multi, of course).
    Going back to the setup listed in this post, Windforce with 55 IAS reaches the 23 EIAS or 5/3/8 Strafe breakpoint. Maximum attack rate against less then 10 targets requires 50 EIAS or 120 IAS and level 28-31 Strafe for 9 minimum arrows, resulting in 5 frames per arrow against a single target and 3.125 frames per arrow against 2-9 dispersed targets.

    23 EIAS and level 28-31 Strafe results in 34/6 or ~5.67 frames per arrow against a single target and 34/9 or ~3.78 frames per arrow against 2-9 dispersed targets, so maximum attack rate is ~13.3% and ~20.9% faster respectively.

    However, in the likely event that you don't equip skill bonuses beyond +4 from Annihilus and Hellfire Torch charms, 23 EIAS with level 24 Strafe results in 31/5 or 6.2 frames per arrow against a single target and 31/8 or 3.875 frames per arrow against 2-9 dispersed targets, so maximum attack rate is 24% faster in both cases.

    50 EIAS with level 24 Strafe results in 46/9 or ~5.1 frames per arrow against a single target and 23/7 or ~3.3 frames per arrow against 2-9 dispersed targets, so it's still ~21.3% and ~17.9% faster respectively.

    The Amazon Basin Diablo II wiki's Amazon attack rate contains tables listing the actual frames per arrow for varying number of arrows or bolts at each breakpoint, which should allow you to take attack rate into account for DPS comparisons: it is not as marginal or straightforward as is widely believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    The DS on Guillame's is affected by critical strike. I typically stop CS at slvl 11, because that's when it stop giving more than 1 point per level. DS, in this case, does about 6.3% real damage increase (15%[DS]*(1-58%[CS])=6.3%.
    The difference is between applying 1.58 times and 1.643 times physical attack damage on average, which is 100 * ( (1.643/1.58) - 1) or ~4% increase in total damage. The first 50% chance of double damage may add the same amount of damage as the last 50%, but as a percentage increase of existing total damage the first 50% may indeed increase it by 50% (1.5 vs 1) but the last 50% only does so by ~33% or 1/3 (2 vs 1.5).

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    This particular instance shows with and without the CB to effectively kill the same time. But, on average, it takes 8.584 hits with CB and 8.997 without. That's an improvement of 4.8% real damage increase.

    So together with DS (+6.3%) & CB (+4.8%), you get a total of 11.1%, which beats a 45/120's 9.2%.
    You cannot add the percentages like that, particularly since increasing the chance of double damage actually reduces CB damage because there will be less remaining life on average. However, the percentages would be multiplicative (so ~6.3% increase due to DS and ~4.8% increase due to CB would result in ~11.4% increase in total damage, not ~11.1%).

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    Wait, war travs give 5% damage? So your total damage is 400? Grief cant be made in bows last time i checked :P
    5.5% was posted, which suggests ~364 (100 * 20/5.5) average physical weapon damage before +% Damage and critical damage. At level 99 Windforce has 35-547 or 291 average weapon damage. The remaining 73 average damage could be accounted for by +146 Minimum and Maximum Damage: +10 Maximum from Razortail leaves +136 from the rare ring and charms (and possibly the jewel socketed in the helm). That looks more plausible, particularly if rounding was involved.

    Of course, it's subsequently been revealed that Critical Strike and Deadly Strike might have been taken into account...

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    Also dont forget an extra 30 dex or frw a circlet could have and lower reqs than guillaume.
    Guillaume's Face may require 115 Strength (and it has +15 Strength), but Windforce requires 134.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    With a full dex build you could get 270 more ED
    And im not sure if you include strafe's ED in your calculations.
    I don't think Strafe's 3/4 attack damage modifier has been taken into account either, at any point in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    One thing to mention about bosses though is what kind of attack rate you are going to get with strafe.. It was around 6-7 fpa when I think i calculated it, making a guided arrow high speed setup mighty attractive. Especially diablo who is really dangerous to get strafelocked against with a low res build
    I commented on single target Strafe vs Guided Arrow earlier in this thread, in my first post on the first page. Strafe can achieve 5 frames per arrow when fired continuously at a single target and, depending on its chance to hit and Guided Arrow's attack rate, it can apply Crushing Blow faster and even higher DPS than Guided Arrow, despite its attack damage penalty.

    However, achieving maximum attack rate may result in sacrifices to other factors that affect DPS (including the often overlooked chance to hit), so it could be a false economy (as could neglecting it, depending on the setup).

  4. #44
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Hmm OK. But this thing about 5 fpa strafe against a single target i still dont understand. If you have say 3 fpa strafe and your attack sequence in frames looks like this 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,8. then wouldnt theere be a total of 5 hits(every second strafe arrow hitting) due to next delay in this 35 frame attack sequence? which would mean an average attack rate of 35/5=7 frames per attack

  5. #45
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    The 23 EIAS breakpoint is 5/3/8 or 5/3/3+5, which means a 10 arrow sequence is 37 frames, as follows:

    Code:
    Arrow    Start    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10  End
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Frame        1    5    8   11   14   17   20   23   26   29   32   37
    The first thing to note is that, although an arrow normally only makes one collision check, when next delay is active a collision check cannot occur. Since it can take up to 3 frames for an arrow to pass through a target, an arrow can still collide with it if next delay expires while it's still passing through.

    For this reason, 6 out of 10 arrows actually collide with the target: arrows 1, 2, 4, 6, 7 and 9 (see the second table in this post of the Crushing Blow and Strafe topic in the Amazon Basin's Bowazon Room for a detailed breakdown; unfortunately a forum software upgrade seems to have broken it, and I can't seem to fix it), so that averages 37/6 or ~6.17 frames per arrow. You cannot achieve a 5 frame attack rate with 23 EIAS: the best you can do is average 5.6 frames per arrow with 7 minimum arrows (level 20-23 Strafe), since 5 of those arrows (1, 2, 4, 6 and 7) can collide with the target in 28 (5 + (6*3) + 5) frames.

    The second thing to note is the effect of the bugged breakpoints: when the client breakpoints are 4/2/7 and 4/2/6 but the server breakpoints are 4/3/7 and 4/3/6, firing continuously results in server sequences being interrupted whenever a new sequence begins on the client. For example, at 50 EIAS with level 28 Strafe for 9 minimum arrows, the client sequence is 25 (4 + (2*8) + 5) frames but the server sequence is 33 (4 + (3*8) + 5) frames:

    Code:
    Arrow    Start    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   End
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Frame        1    4    7   10   13   16   19   22   25   28    33
    If the server sequence is interrupted after 25 frames, only 8 arrows have been fired; of those, only 5 (arrows 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7) can collide with a stationary single target, so average attack rate is 5 (25/5) frames per arrow.

  6. #46
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Great stuff, onderduiker. Can you give us any insight on CB's utility for a Strafer specifically?

  7. #47
    IncGamers Member zrk's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    \Yeah wow the rat hole goes pretty deep with that

  8. #48
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clervis View Post
    Great stuff, onderduiker. Can you give us any insight on CB's utility for a Strafer specifically?
    The discussion in the Amazon Basin's Crushing Blow and Strafe topic was limited to answering the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by hippogriff
    Does the chance for CB effect every arrow of Strafe? I'm mostly wondering for single bosses. Would I have a better chance of CB using Strafe on a single boss then Guided?
    The answer to the first question is a straightforward yes, that to the second is a less straightforward and more qualified yes: the conclusion is quoted in my first post in this thread. However, it never developed into a discussion of whether applying Crushing Blow with a ranged attack was actually worthwhile, which is what we have in this thread. I don't have anything to add to what's gone before at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by zrk View Post
    \Yeah wow the rat hole goes pretty deep with that
    I've expanded the explanation of the effect of next delay and client/server discrepancies on Strafe's attack rate on the Amazon Basin Diablo II wiki's Amazon attack rate page, including some tables which should help clarify matters (or at least the contents of later tables).

  9. #49
    IncGamers Member NoisemakerArrow's Avatar
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    I saw that the 2 frame attack speed is not achievable server-side and it only appears client-side. Does that mean that you can't reach 2 frames on BNet but you can in SP? Or is the server the computer and the client the monitor in that case, and you still can't reach 2 frames?

  10. #50
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    Re: Strafer boss weapon idea?

    The latter, somewhat. I don't understand the real mechanics but there's a server and client even on single player. That's how the game was engineered. So even if you see two frames, it won't actually be hitting anyone for 3+.

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