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  1. #1
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    Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    Thesis
    I wanted to bring up an idea Travis said in an interview about having tier rolls on items such as CC/CD/AS so I wanted to talk about adjusting the trifecta stats (cc/cd/as) into a tier roll that will ultimately allow more choices in armor stats and, how it will effect the addition of creating a balance to add in elemental effects such as chilled,stun,poison,fire. I also want to talk about how to make resistances more dynamic relating them to elemental damage similar to monks except it'll benefit all classes. This may not be perfect and may have holes in the idea but I think these ideas will improve the dynamic of items, choices, and depth. It may not be the silver bullet but it is certainly a good start.

    Fixing the Trifecta crisis


    Adding tiers on the item rolls where CC/CD/AS would all be part of the same tier so that only one of those could roll on that tier - This helps reduces the necessity that in order for an item to be considered "good" it has to have all 3 trifecta stats where this will no longer be a MUST. Players then have more freedom to work in other rolls for their characters, while still choosing whether they want to use builds that benefit from AS or use a build that benefits from CC or try to get a combination of all 3 from all of the different item slots, IMO this tackles the trifecta issue perfectly while balancing the value to bring other stats into play and possibly new stats for the expansion. I think that this could also allow the devs to un-nerf that Attack Speed nerf they did a long while back in the beginning not completely but maybe allow up to 12% instead of 16% AS on gloves,amulets,rings, also increasing crit chance by 2% allowing up to 12% gloves and amulets and 8% on rings and so on for Crit damage too - because now that only 1 can be rolled on an item it makes sense to slightly buff them over all.

    "Resistances" - Converting them into elemental damage for ALL classes and bringing their "special attacks" such as stun/chilled etc into the game.

    First off, I think single resists for example such as Cold Resist should be able to roll a higher max than "All Resists" where AR rolls can go up to 80 on an item, a single resist such as cold should be able to roll up to 120-160 these will also be in the same "tier" roll so only AR or a single resist can roll. Why?

    I think resistances should effect elemental damage as well for characters not just for monks. If barbarians want to focus on fire elemental damage because they have weapons with fire damage which will have a DOT effect and its procs, they're going to want to focus on Fire Resistances on armor. If resists have an offensive capability where it improves the elemental damage on weapons, players may want to choose which resists benefit the elemental damage on their weapon(s) and with higher rolls of single resists up to 160 players will be faced with a choice to decide if they want to use single resistances to get better damage or they can go for All Resists to be well rounded in their elemental resistances.

    So, since trifecta rolls are constricted to only 1 tier roll along with AR and single resists in one tier rolls, native elemental damage on weapons that players can benefit from can be implemented." Stun" on lighting, "slow" on cold, and DOT's on poison and fire spells. Players will have another dynamic to specialize in where they will choose their element. Since the trifecta stats are reduced to 1 roll on an item it creates a better blanace so that its not too powerful and it can work with the elemental damage procs. Players that focus on lightning which will have a native stun effect will most likely focus on Attack Speed to ensure their stuns are happening more often, but players that focus in poison or fire will not want Attack speed, they'll want to focus on CC and CD where the ticks of damage happen over a period of say 5-8 seconds and focusing too much on Attack speed will overlap from proc'ing the burning/poisoning effects where crit chance/cd will make the most out of those ticks of damage.

    I hope those who read this will find this idea interesting. I think these ideas can benefit choices and depth for Diablo3 and I hope you agree. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    "Hai guys! Know what'd make there be more great items in D3? If there were fewer great items in D3!"

    I've taken the liberty of summarizing your wall of text.

  3. #3
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Hazani View Post
    "Hai guys! Know what'd make there be more great items in D3? If there were fewer great items in D3!"

    I've taken the liberty of summarizing your wall of text.
    As I recall, you're the guy who said "there's no such thing as too much power"? Heh.

  4. #4
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    I like your ideas and I think it would really add some depth to gear choices. Not much I can add, but I have no clue how Steve took away from your post what he did. I don't see how that would lead to fewer great items. I'd think it would actually make use of the stock of current elemental damage weapons that don't have "black" damage.

    sent from my GalaxySIII

  5. #5
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    Quote Originally Posted by yovargas View Post
    As I recall, you're the guy who said "there's no such thing as too much power"? Heh.
    Yeah. I was. Your point? You don't get to dodge by bringing up an old thread. The problem is only a few affixes are on the list of things worth having. Explain to the class how removing things from this list and adding nothing onto the list makes the list longer. I'll wait.

    When you're done doing that, you can brainstorm ways of making the other affixes actually good, taking into account softcore players are only interested in spamming dps and as such defensive mods, such as those currently available on gloves and jewelry right now are going to be ignored or at least prioritized lower than things that make the dps number go green.

    I've already done this for you, but I would like for you to relocate your head first.

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    I like your ideas and I think it would really add some depth to gear choices. Not much I can add, but I have no clue how Steve took away from your post what he did. I don't see how that would lead to fewer great items. I'd think it would actually make use of the stock of current elemental damage weapons that don't have "black" damage.

    sent from my GalaxySIII
    Presently, items are all about the trifecta. The more of it it has the better they are. It isn't just items, builds that cannot effectively use trifecta are second class citizens at best. Thing is, making it so you can only have one part of the trifecta on any given item doesn't suddenly make non trifecta affixes good. It just means everyone does drastically lower DPS. Now consider the drop rate on this game is only remotely tolerable when doing MP 10 at max MF. Obviously, if your DPS massively drops that's out of the question. Translation = you find less items, and fewer of those items are any good.

    If he actually wanted to make non trifecta affixes good, there's a number of ways that could happen but less options will always equal less, no matter how many threads he drags that in.

  6. #6
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Hazani View Post
    Yeah. I was. Your point?
    That your idea of what would or wouldn't makes something a "great item" are IMO not good for this game.

    That said, I agree that there are (or should be) better ways to increase item diversity than removing "trifectas". There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of trifecta items, it's just that Blizz did an absurdly bad job of thinking out how blatantly out of whack the CD numbers are with everything else in the game.

  7. #7
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Hazani View Post

    Presently, items are all about the trifecta. The more of it it has the better they are. It isn't just items, builds that cannot effectively use trifecta are second class citizens at best. Thing is, making it so you can only have one part of the trifecta on any given item doesn't suddenly make non trifecta affixes good. It just means everyone does drastically lower DPS. Now consider the drop rate on this game is only remotely tolerable when doing MP 10 at max MF. Obviously, if your DPS massively drops that's out of the question. Translation = you find less items, and fewer of those items are any good.

    If he actually wanted to make non trifecta affixes good, there's a number of ways that could happen but less options will always equal less, no matter how many threads he drags that in.
    Well the MP levels can be tweaked. True that it doesn't make non trifecta affixes "good" but it does allow people to choose to work in those other affixes to benefit their characters. I agree that there needs to be more affixes that are comparable to the trifecta stats, thorns for example needs a buff and it should work in conjunction with being effected by a % of armor then you'd have two stats +armor and +thorns that work synergistcally off each other like cc/cd work together. I made a post on diablo reddit to get more feedback and some people posted some very nice perspectives on it that this is not necessarily a trifecta issue but pointed out how this is more of a core design issue that needs to be addressed first. http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comme...ls_for_cccdas/
    Anyways even if you don't agree with cc/cd/as being tiered into one roll I did post some ideas on changing how elemental resistances work by having offensive capabilities which I think would be interesting.

  8. #8
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    Re: Itemization and Tiered rolls for CC/CD/AS

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMatrix View Post
    Well the MP levels can be tweaked. True that it doesn't make non trifecta affixes "good" but it does allow people to choose to work in those other affixes to benefit their characters. I agree that there needs to be more affixes that are comparable to the trifecta stats, thorns for example needs a buff and it should work in conjunction with being effected by a % of armor then you'd have two stats +armor and +thorns that work synergistcally off each other like cc/cd work together. I made a post on diablo reddit to get more feedback and some people posted some very nice perspectives on it that this is not necessarily a trifecta issue but pointed out how this is more of a core design issue that needs to be addressed first. http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comme...ls_for_cccdas/
    Anyways even if you don't agree with cc/cd/as being tiered into one roll I did post some ideas on changing how elemental resistances work by having offensive capabilities which I think would be interesting.
    Let's see... What all affixes can even spawn on gloves:

    Prime stat = good but can be gotten anywhere, damage without damage multipliers sucks... seriously, good luck breaking 100k dps with even top tier non trifecta gear... trifecta gear will get you > 100k dps on a 1m budget.

    Vitality = see previous comment, except sc players (the vast majority) care less about defense.

    Armor/resists = see vit.

    Pickup radius = nice if a WD, better gotten on a slot with less competition otherwise (and often even then).

    And then you get into the various junk mods like health globe bonuses and thorns and so forth. Now you could make those useful, for example by making thorns scale with Vit so as to promote a different style of play, and making an armor that converts health healed from health globes into damage or attack speed or something. You could make more stats useful. I suspect even if you did though people would just spam trifecta on gloves and get those other stats on items that get fewer/no parts of the trifecta though.

    Think about it. Gladiator Gauntlets can be bifectas with LoH. How many even pick those up? Third part of trifecta > LoH. Frostburns aren't good even for cold wizards, but Tasker's CAN be trifectas, they'll just only have a max of 112 to a stat and 50 to the other stat and that's with a marquise gem in the socket. Normal trifectas can get much larger stat boosts and/or all res in addition to that trifecta. Conversely IK gloves can be trifectas and still have decent other stats.

    Without checking the AH, which of these items are worthless and which are valuable?

    Point is, no one is ever gonna trade trifecta for anything else unless that other thing is just as good. It isn't even a factor of pure damage - most of the good builds REQUIRE at least bifectas to function, otherwise they lack the cc and ias to even work at all.

    The entire Wizard class revolves around critical hits. There are zero remotely usable builds that are not critical hit based. Between Critical Mass and Arcane Power on crit every single one, even the new ones like Sleet Storm are entirely crit spam dependent. This means a number of things, starting with nerfing trifecta (or CM) is the same as deleting Wizards from the game. (Most Wizard skills have low proc rates, which is also why they all use the same few skills).

    Presently if you had a hypothetical one handed weapon that set your crit chance to 0% it'd need to do 3k DPS in order to even begin being competitive. That sounds nuts, and it will likely provoke a lot of kneejerk reactions but such a weapon would be very much worth using as it'd make your damage output much more consistent - provided of course you are not a Barb or Wizard, in which case you can't use it because you need your critical hits. And that only locks you out of 2/3 parts of the trifecta = attack speed would work perfectly.

    Gloves worth using without trifecta would actually have to be more insane. After all, weapons only get crit damage and a socket for more crit damage and a little ias at best. I'm actually not sure how you'd even do that, so it might be better to just write that slot off as trifecta spam and then work on making other item types more interesting.

    Edit: As long as I remember, here is another series of relatively simple changes that'd make a lot more items useful.

    Weapons:

    Amethysts in weapons grant 0.5% + (0.2% * tier) life steal in addition to their current effects.
    Topazes in weapons grant 1% ias per tier.
    Emeralds and rubies are the same.

    Helms:

    Emeralds in helms grant pickup radius equal to 1 + (tier / 2) in addition to their current effects.
    Amethysts, rubies, and topazes are the same.

    Other:

    Rather than have a massive generic "other" category, break it up and change the functions of sockets there.

    Shields socket as weapons.
    Other offhands (mojo, quiver, source) socket as half strength weapons.
    Amulets socket as half strength weapons.
    Rings socket as quarter strength weapons.

    Chest armor, pants, and other random items with a socket can remain as basic stat boosters.

    This does a number of things.

    It makes shields a lot more useful, as you lose much less DPS to equip one. You'd still lose dps when compared to dual wield but not to the point where no one would use a shield unless forced.
    It makes sockets in the aforementioned items much more useful. Currently you just get a little more stats from them, except if you got a stat affix instead of a socket affix you'd get a larger boost AND save money on a gem.
    <b>It single handedly solves the life steal problem</b>. Presently, many otherwise amazing items are worthless because no ls, especially two handed weapons such as Skorn, Skorn, Skorn, Skorn, Skorn... and oh yeah, Skorn. It's easy to see why - if you are not a Barbarian, you can't get ls anywhere else. No Magic Weapon doesn't count, 1.5% is not good enough by itself. If you can get ls somewhere else, those items can no longer be dismissed out of hand.
    It allows sockets to function as the versatility granting affix they are intended as. Currently they don't, as there's only 1-2 possible things you'd want to use them on anyways and never more than one at a time. With this though you fill the holes in your gear to fill the holes in your setup. Need ls and don't want to be forced to run Shadow Power - Gloom? Ammy that ammy and quiver! Don't care about ls and just want dps? Emerald/ruby/topaz. CM Wizard? Topaz, then emeralds or rubies.

    This opens up many more options and for once, presents players with an actual choice. It also makes more affixes and gems good, adding to the list of available options without detracting from it.
    Last edited by Steven Hazani; 21-06-2013 at 19:22.

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