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  1. #41
    IncGamers Member Technomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    *frothy abusive bluster*
    That sounds like... some kind of deranged sex act.

    I consider myself flattered!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    I think I can do better.



    snip

    I would not call religion worthless though, It's more like learning Latin as far as the value goes, it's embedded as part of the institutions around you so it's good to know how to deal with it...

    snip
    I'm not saying other things wouldn't be better, like philosophy of course. I was talking just in the context of "if you were gonna learn about a religious text..." for the same basic reason I quoted from you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    It doesn't matter what courses are taught. The point is "obey your master".

    I fear I might break the internet if too many of us compliment the video, but .

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    You talkin' to me?[/DeNiro]


    Actually, it wasn't necessarily you, I didn't know. Some people pop a blood vessel when you throw out the term "mythology".


    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    Dude! I totally agree! I love the original dragon warrior!

    But I do agree with most of what you said, snide remarks aside
    Yeah, I was channeling a little bit of my inner Neil Degrasse Tyson there.

    Anyway:
    "Art thou the descendant of Erdrick? Hast thou any proof?"

  2. #42
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    Problem is that children don't have enough grasp on the world to make "decent" choices about anything,
    and secondary problem is that children are susceptive to anything being taught (schools basically brainwash children)
    Therein lies the problem I mentioned earlier. By Bismark's social indoctrination system, i.e. the modern Public school, having the pretense of removing religion and therefore the contemporary societal moral instruction from school, you're not only creating a vacuum but you're causing alternative moral instruction. I see it incessantly in my work environment - the false apology for offense, surreptitious bullying, and eventually violence and hyper-sexualization. Kids are beaten senseless about sharing, cooperation, and tolerance, but there's very little "there" there - which is why we can't use the word *** on the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    As far as the virtue of "holiness" goes, I'll simply refer to a few fact
    Your so-called "fact" is generally fabricated or extraordinarily warped, but there's really no need to ruin another thread by my getting into a pointless slug-fest proving someone's completely wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Technomancer View Post
    Actually, it wasn't necessarily you, I didn't know. Some people pop a blood vessel when you throw out the term "mythology".
    Yeah, sure. Pull the other one. Did you know the answers to my questions? WITHOUT GOOGLE?

    Mythology is part of society; it, like religion, is how it imparts secondary social mores. There's any number of them floating around without people's awareness. Sadly, there's a lot less awareness about truthfulness and other traditional American/Libertarian morals and a lot more about conformity and being fearful of strangers and the supernatural.

  3. #43
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Therein lies the problem I mentioned earlier. By Bismark's social indoctrination system, i.e. the modern Public school, having the pretense of removing religion and therefore the contemporary societal moral instruction from school, you're not only creating a vacuum but you're causing alternative moral instruction. I see it incessantly in my work environment - the false apology for offense, surreptitious bullying, and eventually violence and hyper-sexualization. Kids are beaten senseless about sharing, cooperation, and tolerance, but there's very little "there" there - which is why we can't use the word *** on the forums.
    I've heard religious people say that the only restrain they have from beating everybody senseless is that they fear God.

    I'm the living example that you don't need a god to be morally "good", I'm not afraid of possible punishment throughout the afterlife or karma or something.
    Yet I'm always nice to people, and offer a helping hand where needed (sure I can be an ******* in certain situations, but in general I'm considered a nice guy)

    And what about all the immoral things people do either in the name of their god/believes, or by simply pretending to be religious?

    How many people who claim to be religious, but only for pretense, they don't really care about or fear god?
    Around 85% of the world has believes in (a) diety(ies), but howmany of them is true?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Mythology is part of society; it, like religion, is how it imparts secondary social mores. There's any number of them floating around without people's awareness. Sadly, there's a lot less awareness about truthfulness and other traditional American/Libertarian morals and a lot more about conformity and being fearful of strangers and the supernatural.
    Science fiction is also part of society, does that make it equally true to mythology and religion?
    It too has brought many people together, sparked ideas/awareness, learns moral lessons etc

  4. #44
    IncGamers Member nurman's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfofbenjamin View Post
    It is a truth that you can not deny that books like the Bible exist and virtues like Holiness contribute to the advancement and prosperity of today's society.
    Debatable. I consider Religion the single biggest killer of people in Africa, after starvation. (Due to the Catholic Church's ban of condoms and Catholic Faith's spreading in Africa.)
    Spoiler


    Also, prosperity in today's society does not come from religious material, but rather from the industrial revolution and scientific & medical advancements made in the past 200 years.

  5. #45
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by nurman View Post
    Debatable. I consider Religion the single biggest killer of people in Africa, after starvation. (Due to the Catholic Church's ban of condoms and Catholic Faith's spreading in Africa.)
    Spoiler


    Also, prosperity in today's society does not come from religious material, but rather from the industrial revolution and scientific & medical advancements made in the past 200 years.


    I would go even further and proclaim that most wars originate between different religious views, or atleast between people of "conflictive" religions.

  6. #46
    IncGamers Member Ash Housewares's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    While religion can contribute to the "us vs. them" nature of civilization and basic social organization, its just one of many means of categorization and common identity within a group, not the cause of conflict, the cause of conflict will near always have to do with scarcity of resources. To suggest religion as an origin of conflict is to narrow one's vision and miss everything else at play.

  7. #47
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    I've heard religious people say that the only restrain they have from beating everybody senseless is that they fear God.
    I've heard Atheists say they were going to slaughter every single religious person on the planet and bathe in their blood. Aren't stupid anecdotes great evidence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    I'm the living example that you don't need a god to be morally "good", I'm not afraid of possible punishment throughout the afterlife or karma or something.
    Yet I'm always nice to people, and offer a helping hand where needed (sure I can be an ******* in certain situations, but in general I'm considered a nice guy)
    Hardly, and I'm so sick of that sort of bullcrap that I don't know whether to scream invective until Dredd steps in, or just walk away in disgust. I'll try a middle road solution, and explain it once more FECKIN' time, with feeling:

    1. Society must have moral instruction of youth in order to survive in a cohesive fashion.
    2. Religion is the primary mechanism used by the society to instill this instruction.
    3. The society, having successfully instilled these social mores, is cohesive.
    4. Atheists cannot exist outside of this cohesive environment.
    5. When the society imagines it no longer needs these morals, or turns against the tool (religion) used to impart them, it will collapse.



    In other words, you may or may not be a douche as your mood strikes you, but that's not much less true of the religious - they just know they have something to answer to if they do. However, if not for your society having quality religious underpinnings, you'd either be gutted and skinned like an animal, or hiding your beliefs for fear of persecution. If you STILL want to spout bullcrap, I suggest you look to the MOSTEST TOLERANT LIBRUL NATION EVAH!!! to your North, and check out just how well their society is doing in the face of an in-cohesive challenge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    And what about all the immoral things people do either in the name of their god/believes, or by simply pretending to be religious?
    Well, they don't have the blood of 100,000,000 dead on their hands, where you do. What silliness would you like to play at now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    How many people who claim to be religious, but only for pretense, they don't really care about or fear god?
    Lots. The Atheist canard about "more religious in prison than atheist" springs from this fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    Science fiction is also part of society, does that make it equally true to mythology and religion?
    It too has brought many people together, sparked ideas/awareness, learns moral lessons etc
    Most definitely. You could even assert that Sci-Fi, as well as Fantasy, carries the modern weight of what used to be exclusively Christian for religious import. Consider how deep and wide the effect of Star Trek was on Western society, a remarkably Liberal show in both valid and invalid uses of the word. Also, try to ignore that there are so many people who, no longer having strong moral/character roots, learn how to speak Klingon, or even worse convert to Jedi-ism, because they unconsciously recognize how damaged their society's mores are and yearn to cling to some undamaged ones.

  8. #48
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by nurman View Post
    Debatable. I consider Religion the single biggest killer of people in Africa, after starvation. (Due to the Catholic Church's ban of condoms and Catholic Faith's spreading in Africa.)
    Spoiler
    You might, but you might be incredibly stupid for doing so in the bargain. Discounting the 100K dead Christians every year thanks to Islam (because they're not exclusively African), trying to assert that Catholicism is the cause of AIDS is not only grotesquely stupid because there are only around 158 million Catholics in all Africa. It's also because the number of AIDS dead (~1.2 million/year, using extraordinarily generous and unsubstantiated claims) which pale in comparison to those dead at the hands of Leftist environmentalism for the prohibition against DDT (850,000/year), which is completely preventable and avoidable.

    Then, if the Islamists, mosquitoes, and HIV-positive hookers don't get you, you can always be mauled by lions or just starve to death. Yay, non-Christian society!
    Quote Originally Posted by nurman View Post
    Also, prosperity in today's society does not come from religious material, but rather from the industrial revolution and scientific & medical advancements made in the past 200 years.
    All thanks to Western societies built on the "masculine Christianity" model. Do you really want to try to tell me that China, Russia, South America, or the Far East were the progenitors of all the successes modern societies enjoy today? REALLY?

  9. #49
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    I've heard Atheists say they were going to slaughter every single religious person on the planet and bathe in their blood. Aren't stupid anecdotes great evidence?
    Well, either I know only crazy people, or a lot of people genuinly beheave because they fear a deity.

    This wasn't a single anecdotes, it were multiple attempts to poorly try to make the same point that you do: societies need religion or they'll tear themselves apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Hardly, and I'm so sick of that sort of bullcrap that I don't know whether to scream invective until Dredd steps in, or just walk away in disgust. I'll try a middle road solution, and explain it once more FECKIN' time, with feeling:

    1. Society must have moral instruction of youth in order to survive in a cohesive fashion.
    2. Religion is the primary mechanism used by the society to instill this instruction.
    3. The society, having successfully instilled these social mores, is cohesive.
    4. Atheists cannot exist outside of this cohesive environment.
    5. When the society imagines it no longer needs these morals, or turns against the tool (religion) used to impart them, it will collapse.


    In other words, you may or may not be a douche as your mood strikes you, but that's not much less true of the religious - they just know they have something to answer to if they do. However, if not for your society having quality religious underpinnings, you'd either be gutted and skinned like an animal, or hiding your beliefs for fear of persecution. If you STILL want to spout bullcrap, I suggest you look to the MOSTEST TOLERANT LIBRUL NATION EVAH!!! to your North, and check out just how well their society is doing in the face of an in-cohesive challenge.
    Let me start of by gently staying calm.
    (I honestly don't get why religious people always get worked up so fast,
    you don't see me jumping around if I disagree with any of your points?)

    1. If society is to survive in a similar fashion of today, then yes.
    2. That's like beating your child if it misbeheaves rather than finding out if it's sick orso?
    Surely there are other more gentler ways rather than to enforce religion and instill fear in people?
    3. Same as point 1 (I don't really see the point of making this point as it's basically the same)
    4. Atheists can't exist outside? Not that I label myself an atheist, but I feel fine anywhere.
    If not for the enforced religious moral laws, we must abide by human laws anyway?
    (again, I'd like to point out that ALL religious laws were written by men, yet they proclaim women are equal?)
    5. Societies collapse for various reasons (money/power/land/...)
    It seems like a selffullfilling prophecy proclaiming that societies will crumble if religious morals are abandoned.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Well, they don't have the blood of 100,000,000 dead on their hands, where you do. What silliness would you like to play at now?
    Again, most (if not all) wars revolve around religious parties battering eachother.
    I don't consider myself part of any group of believers or disbelievers in this world, how does that make me part of any bloodshed?

    I don't tolerate or approve of ANY war or random act of violence for ANY reason at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Lots. The Atheist canard about "more religious in prison than atheist" springs from this fallacy.
    Don't know about that, I was simply referring to the fact that while most people are religious, most of them don't really bother with it in anyway, or spread wrong statements about their own religion, or poorly try to use their religion to defend any obvious moral issues they've caused.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Most definitely. You could even assert that Sci-Fi, as well as Fantasy, carries the modern weight of what used to be exclusively Christian for religious import. Consider how deep and wide the effect of Star Trek was on Western society, a remarkably Liberal show in both valid and invalid uses of the word. Also, try to ignore that there are so many people who, no longer having strong moral/character roots, learn how to speak Klingon, or even worse convert to Jedi-ism, because they unconsciously recognize how damaged their society's mores are and yearn to cling to some undamaged ones.
    Well, part of this actually pleases me, most religious people forcefully cling to their religion, rather than the values it represents.
    But a full conversion to klingon or jedi seems the other extreme way, opposed to the Islam (to use something else rather than Catholic), they're not considered true religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    All thanks to Western societies built on the "masculine Christianity" model. Do you really want to try to tell me that China, Russia, South America, or the Far East were the progenitors of all the successes modern societies enjoy today? REALLY?
    Actually, it's easy to miss the global picture, it's not because countries that seems or are poorer in quality/economy/culture/wisdom/etc that they always were that way.

    It wasn't until the 17th century before Europe and America started developing rapidly, the rest of the world was way ahead of them (Arabs invented the numbers we use, China invented gunpowder, MongoliŽ invented bow (iirc), while the Catholics were still wandering around in filthy streets in the Middle Ages, Muslims took greater care of their health, etc etc)

    At some point in history, we took the advancements of the other cultures, and embraced and upgraded it all, whereas the countries you described, clinged more to tradition rather than to combine the best and innovate?
    At some points (purely religious, not how the people actually act these days) you have to give the Muslims more credit than the Catholics, Islam is closer to the **** and the original values of the Thora/Bible/Quran, eventhough the Catholics predate the Muslims?

    The Russians were actually first in space with just about everything, except for landing on the moon before the Americans?



    As a general note, I would like to point out that most current religious people (that I've spoken), while they do believe in their religion and their deity, they don't believe in their people anymore.
    It seems that society, despite people still worshipping a deity and it's values, is crumbling because they've lost their faith in their fellow man.
    Last edited by Dawnmaster; 31-05-2013 at 21:21. Reason: typo

  10. #50
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Religion being taught in schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by merv
    Therein lies the problem I mentioned earlier. By Bismark's social indoctrination system, i.e. the modern Public school, having the pretense of removing religion and therefore the contemporary societal moral instruction from school, you're not only creating a vacuum but you're causing alternative moral instruction. I see it incessantly in my work environment - the false apology for offense, surreptitious bullying, and eventually violence and hyper-sexualization. Kids are beaten senseless about sharing, cooperation, and tolerance, but there's very little "there" there - which is why we can't use the word *** on the forums
    i don't thinkt hat I want the school system teaching morality to kids. i feel that's the parent's job. Basic stuff, sure. They need to know they can't do ANYTHING, but they should be pretty broad strokes. Sharing, cooperation, tolerance...that's fine. I don't want too much more there--at least not from some rube who signed up for education because it was the easiest major and they'd get summers off.

    Quote Originally Posted by tech
    And what about all the immoral things people do either in the name of their god/believes, or by simply pretending to be religious?
    The problem is, they don't think it's immoral if god told them to do that thing. Plus, everyone likes to interpret their god their own way. Start listing things someone's religion thinks is wrong and it won't be too long before they start arguing that their version of god doesn't think that. Merv has a clip about muslims hating dogs that I'm sure would infuriate them if we had any here. If you'd rather irritate a christian, just flip through leviticus. They'll deny that much of it is relevent until you get to a "real" one.

    Besides, it's not the belief in god that is really the problem. There are conceptions of god that are not so harmful. I think a lot of religious people i know take what they will from what their church says and they make their own morals anyway. How many Catholics use birth control? I know the recent poll was bunk, but I still bet it's a lot. The problem stems from the people that after figuring out what their interpretation is, insist that everyone else live by that.

    Quote Originally Posted by tech
    Science fiction is also part of society, does that make it equally true to mythology and religion?
    It too has brought many people together, sparked ideas/awareness, learns moral lessons etc
    I think we did read some sci-fi in school. I don't recall which ones were assigned and which were on my own, but I read a lot of that sort of thing as a kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by nurman
    Debatable. I consider Religion the single biggest killer of people in Africa, after starvation. (Due to the Catholic Church's ban of condoms and Catholic Faith's spreading in Africa.)
    I don't know about that. You can't attribute all of the spread of AIDS to religion. Certainly it's really really crappy of the Church, and certainly people have died because if it, but it's really hard to say which deaths from the war were due to religion, which AIDS deaths were--it's just too broad a statement, and probably isn't close to true. Certainly though, we can say organized religion isn't doing africa a lot of favors.

    Ash makes a good point, it's often a factor, but rarely the only factor. Usually, there's another reason and the religious difference is used to drum up support for a war that otherwise wouldn't be there. Organized religion through history was a way to control the masses. One of the reasons America is so great is that it encourages a diversity of religions by making freedom of it the first thing we did after spelling out how the government will be organized.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmerv
    I've heard Atheists say they were going to slaughter every single religious person on the planet and bathe in their blood. Aren't stupid anecdotes great evidence?
    Um, You've said that Religion is what keeps people from running around killing people. in fact, you say it in the very same post:

    Hardly, and I'm so sick of that sort of bullcrap that I don't know whether to scream invective until Dredd steps in, or just walk away in disgust. I'll try a middle road solution, and explain it once more FECKIN' time, with feeling:


    1. Society must have moral instruction of youth in order to survive in a cohesive fashion.
    2. Religion is the primary mechanism used by the society to instill this instruction.
    3. The society, having successfully instilled these social mores, is cohesive.
    4. Atheists cannot exist outside of this cohesive environment.
    5. When the society imagines it no longer needs these morals, or turns against the tool (religion) used to impart them, it will collapse.




    In other words, you may or may not be a douche as your mood strikes you, but that's not much less true of the religious - they just know they have something to answer to if they do. However, if not for your society having quality religious underpinnings, you'd either be gutted and skinned like an animal, or hiding your beliefs for fear of persecution. If you STILL want to spout bullcrap, I suggest you look to the MOSTEST TOLERANT LIBRUL NATION EVAH!!! to your North, and check out just how well their society is doing in the face of an in-cohesive challenge.
    1. Agree
    2. Doesn't HAVE to be, it just has/had been. I would argue that since people now make up their own interpretations of their religions, disregarding many of the teachings they don't like, that it's hard to say that this is still true today in the average American household. Merely saying be good because god is watching is not materially different than be good because santa is watching, or be good because that's how we behave in this family, or be good because I said so.
    3. Social mores change over time, and while may have been rooted in a medley of various j-ewish traditions and things that stemmed from them, we certainly don't all agree that killing is wrong ONLY because God said not to.
    4. you keep saying that, but there's no way to test your hypothesis. It would take a group that was magically never exposed to superstition, and then we'd have to maintain that separation for many generations to see what happened. Furthermore, there is no reason to think that's true. How does someone else's god that a person doesn't believe in keep that person from killing people? It doesn't. Do you really think that if a group of atheists were to build a spaceship that could sustain enough people to build a new society on a new planet, that they would not come to logical conclusion that murder is wrong and should be against the law? Have you taken so many bible courses, but never an ethics class? Kant, means and ends, imperatives, yadda yadda.
    5. You can't claim that, you have a sample size of one, and i would argue the soviets shouldn't even count because it was not their lack of religion that ruined them, it was their terrible execution of bad economic policy. Their flaw was too much central planning, and not enough freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmerv
    Well, they don't have the blood of 100,000,000 dead on their hands, where you do. What silliness would you like to play at now?
    That's just as bad as his claim. which 100MM are you referring to? The cold war only had 382 casualties.

    Also, try to ignore that there are so many people who, no longer having strong moral/character roots, learn how to speak Klingon, or even worse convert to Jedi-ism, because they unconsciously recognize how damaged their society's mores are and yearn to cling to some undamaged ones.
    I think learning klingon makes you a nerd/loser. It's not inherently immoral, just a useless hobby like say, collecting beanie babies after all the value of them is gone. People have dumb hobbies. Converting to "jedi" is dumb since no one ever claimed it was real. Plus, there's something inherently dumb about a philosophy of peace when they spend half the movie trying to slice each other in half with laser swords and the series ends with an enormous battlestation full of innocent people forced to work for the one bad guy, or be choked via telekinesis, getting blown up by the "greatest of the jedi" (or his kid, who was the greatest? I forget.) Aren't those people innocent (or partially innocent)? How are the rebels any different than the guy who blew up alderon?

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