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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member japanzaman's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Yeah, I think the issue here is play experience. You need to have a good feel for what your character can take and what they can't, and you need to have certain strategies for dealing with the nastier enemies like the ranged archers or stygian dolls. Nightfish also touched on a very important aspect of HC play: you need to be keeping the 1% occurrences in mind at all times when you play. By this, I mean you have to always have a plan for dealing with unlucky situations like curses, fanatacism, might, conviction, etc. Most people that die in HC get done in by the rare instances when unique monsters get especially nasty stacked mods.

    If you are looking for a "easy" character to complete HC with, the honest answer is that there really isn't one. Some may be relatively easier than others, but it really comes down to play experience. I've beaten HC with every class untwinked, and if I had to give my own ranking on difficulty through hardcore (easiest to most difficult), I would probably rank the classes as such:

    1. Amazon (Javazon) - good life, passives, a summon, and Lightning/Poison ranged attacks can get you through 95% of the game. You also can make due with rather modest gear.

    2. Barbarian (Concentrator) - This guy was made not to die, though the going is rather slow unless you have a good weapon. War Cry / Shout and Battle Orders will make this character rather safe for most areas of the game.

    3. Necro (Summoner) - If you are patient then this class can be pretty safe thanks to all his curses and summons. However, I rank him 3'rd because the margin for error is rather small unless you are equipped rather well. With the previous two classes, mistakes are not necessarily fatal due to their high defensive skills.

    4. Assassin (Trapper) - Very similar play style to the Necro, but you'll be exposed a bit more in certain places. Fade and Mind Blast can help you out, but you could find certain enemies with lightning immunities troubling.

    5. Druid (Windy) - You could build a Bear druid and tank your way through the game, but I find the Windy druid with a Bear Summon can get the job done even with rather modest equipment thanks to Oak Sage.

    6. Paladin - A Paladin can be a breeze with good gear no matter what build you choose due to things like Holy Shield and his defensive auras. If you are playing without good gear, things can get dangerous in Hell.

    7. Sorceress - Usually the frailest of the classes without decent gear. Oh you'll be able to kill stuff, but sooner or later something is bound to kill you first.

  2. #12
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    I think you and Nightfish nailed it-gear really isn't the issue. It's been more my playstyle where I charge through without attempting any crowd control. Like my kicksin, I didn't even bother with COS..

    Same for Barb, i never use the warcries like howl....

    I have played enough softcore to feel i know what the characters are like, but Hardcore ramps in difficulty from 'this is so easy' to 'dead by pack of cursed archers/deathknights/take your pick' in moments.

    Again, this has been useful and I will attempt better playstyle in future. Thanks for your thoughts.

  3. #13
    IncGamers Member japanzaman's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Don't worry- most of us regular Joe's who don't have "fish" somewhere in their name rarely ever succeed on their first play through in HC. It took me quite a few attempts before finally breaking through.

  4. #14
    IncGamers Site Pal pharphis's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Quote Originally Posted by japanzaman View Post
    Don't worry- most of us regular Joe's who don't have "fish" somewhere in their name rarely ever succeed on their first play through in HC. It took me quite a few attempts before finally breaking through.
    My first attempt (just lost year) ended in the blood moor to a CE/LE fallen lol. At the time I didn't know about the invisible novas and was destroyed quickly. It's little things like this detail that go a long way toward survival.

  5. #15
    IncGamers Member Nightfish's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    No offense, but I wouldn't put that much faith in japanzaman's build recommendations. Some of the assessments smell of "I never actually tried this (in depth)". I'm not gonna rebut them in detail, though. YMMV.

    Regardless of which class you choose, there are several options for a decent HC character for each of them. It's just a matter of finding one that suits you and that you are able to build. And that doesn't necessarily mean having a bunch of high runes to throw at it.

    Sometimes it's just a matter of finding the correct item to turn a decent build into one that you could literally bet your life on in HC. For example, I've played a 2h melee enchantress and didn't have much of a problem getting her through the game, thanks to my trusty darksight helm. Sometimes it's just about finding the right tool to make something work or elevate a mediocre build to a done deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient Of Mu Mu View Post
    I have played enough softcore to feel i know what the characters are like, but Hardcore ramps in difficulty from 'this is so easy' to 'dead by pack of cursed archers/deathknights/take your pick' in moments.
    This makes no sense. Hardcore is exactly as difficult as Softcore, they only differ in their respawn mechanisms.

    But yea, the more you share, the more obvious it is that you need to rethink your playstyle if you want to tackle HC successfully. What really helps is to develop the "I don't want to die. Ever" ambition in SC already. If you know how to handle multiple packs of cursed fanatic whatevers in SC, you know how to do that in HC as well.

    The trick to HC isn't using crowd control on every single monster, either. Well, of course that works but that gets really, really tedious. The trick (imho) is to sniff out the 5 situations per hour where you need to use CC and actually bring your A game then.
    Last edited by Nightfish; 27-05-2013 at 15:56.

  6. #16
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    I played an untwinked single pass SC barb about a year ago and then an almost untwinked-single pass HC barb. The SC barb died twice and the HC barb didn't die ( guardian, duh ). They weren't the same builds, but similar. But yeah, crowd control warcries are the key. I think I used warcry mostly for the SC and more of taunt for the HC one..

  7. #17
    IncGamers Member Grisu's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient Of Mu Mu View Post
    I have played enough softcore to feel i know what the characters are like, but Hardcore ramps in difficulty from 'this is so easy' to 'dead by pack of cursed archers/deathknights/take your pick' in moments.
    Of course you have played the characters enough in SC to know what the character are like, no doubt about that.

    What I realized when I switched to HC though wasm that you (i.e. "one") simply play them differently in HC. You watch out for things you never did bother to look for in SC, like "which of the 2 seal in the CS triggers the Infector of Souls boss spawn and which doesn't".

    So I completely second NF when he says that you have to develop the "I do not die" mentality already in SC.

    Then there are the utility skills you said you didn't use until now, like Cloak of Shadows, Howl, Taunt, Telekinesis, Attract, Dim Vision, Shock Wave or - behold! - Conversion! (the only crowd control skill besides Smite the Paladin skill tree offers...well, Holy Freeze maybe)
    Ok, Conversion probably is more something for an untwinked build, but still...

    Don't give up though, HC is really worth it :-) If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. Also: Read up the progress posts from jiansonz in various tournament threads. I really learned much about HC gaming that way

  8. #18
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone that weighed in with their thoughts.

    I have found this a really informative thread and I hope others contemplating/having difficulty with hardcore found it useful as well.

    Nightfish, I know the scale of difficulty is the same in softcore vs hardcore. I expressed myself badly-what I meant was due to my play style I charged blindly in without identifying what mods the archers had and died in a blink. Whereas moments before I was a whirling dervish of death. I got cocky. This could have been avoided by using the mindset you all have discussed.

    Again, thanks all.

    I will apply the gleaned nuggets of wisdom from you all

  9. #19
    IncGamers Member coju's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient Of Mu Mu View Post
    Oh yeah, his killspeed is like a lawnmower.
    So that's my problem: I have to restart my lawnmower every 25 feet. Am changing the air filter out on it, so that should help.
    Oh, diablo ii... erm, I've heard the frenzy/doubleswing(orZeal) barbs were the best next thing.

  10. #20
    IncGamers Member japanzaman's Avatar
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    Re: Gear reccomendations wanted, max survive for Frenzy Barb in Hardcore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfish View Post
    No offense, but I wouldn't put that much faith in japanzaman's build recommendations. Some of the assessments smell of "I never actually tried this (in depth)".
    If by depth meaning having not played 7X7 Hardcore builds, then yes you are correct. The list was simply my opinion after taking each class through HC. Yes, they were pretty much cookie cutter builds, but they were also all untwinked which means anybody looking to succeed in HC could use them as a starting point regardless of their wealth situation.

    And no, I didn't give an in depth explanation of my choices, mainly because in the end these were just my opinions anyway. I'm just not that good with the sorceress, so getting her through HC (Frozen Orb/Lightning) was the most challenging for me. Others might share that same opinion about a Javazon, while others might find all of them a breeze.

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