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  1. #71
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Techno's (and Hillary's) allegation was specifically that the GOP had blood on their hands because they cut funding at the consulate. This was proven to be complete horsecrap beyond any doubt back in October.
    The blood is on the hands of the people who planned and organized the raid. Just as I don't blame Bush for 9-11, or FDR for Pearl Harbor.

    Furthermore, numerous people including Amb. Stevens protested what you're calling "bad priorities", and Hillary and others openly lied about their doing so. Are you doubling down on the horsecrap?
    And it was interpreted by two different administrations as just another bureaucrat wanting a larger budget, much like all the other embassies that were asking for this and that. I'm surprised you don't understand this better. You've never sent an email for the sole purpose of if something goes wrong, you could say you weren't to blame?

    No, you're just being the dullard you typically act as, and trying to box me in when not even understanding the issues. Nobody wanted bodies. They wanted to maintain a "low profile" because they were "in bed" with Al Quaeda.
    You seriously want me to believe that Obama is "in bed with" AQ? Come on. Do we give them weapons so they'll fight people we don't like? Yes, we do that a lot. It's dumb, but we do. That's not treason, that's just an overreach of the covert arm of our foreign relations. We've been doing that since before I was born.

    Counting shots fired at embassies, which does indeed happen regularly, is quite a bit different from an organized assault resulting in the death of the Ambassador. The last time we lost an ambassador was over 30 years ago, in Afghanistan, during a kidnapping attempt.
    I don't know the actual number of people who've died in embassy attacks through history, but if we looked it up I bet more than 4 died under Bush. (people, not ambassadors).


    That's part of what's debatable. If Obama knew that he had hired Al Quaeda, headed by a Gitmo detainee, to guard the embassy then it does indeed potentially rise to treason; you don't hire your enemy to defend you. Honestly, though, that's not the only treasonous part - it's also the cover up and the disinterest in defense of the Ambassador and the compound that qualifies. Seriously, who appoints an open homosexual as Ambassador to a violently Islamic country?
    blah blah blah, they were temporary allies to knock out the regime. We've armed bad people before, we've paid bad people before, this post is getting repetitive.

    You keep saying treason is too much. Do you even know what it means? You certainly don't appear to.
    Your version of treason is anything that helped the "enemy". So if a fat kid registers for selective service, because he's fat and couldn't properly defend us, he's a traitor. Words have meanings, and you as usual, don't like them so you use them differently.

    BTW, to be clear, I don't think Obama is a traitor. I'm not saying he's heroic or anything either. He talks a good game, seems to lack the willingness to roll up his sleeves and get involved in anything. The GOP is frustrated that nothing sticks, but nothing sticks because he delegates running to the country to everyone else. I do think he went to sleep that night. i do think he lacks leadership, and I would never hire him to run a business.

    Nevertheless, we're providing aid & comfort to Al Quaeda - which DOES constitute treason. All that remains is to establish who approved doing so.
    How is that different from countless instances where we've helped anyone who was the enemy or our enemy, but turned out not to be a friend? It was the soviets that helped defeat the nazis, it was AQ in afghanistan that annoyed the Soviets, and since the third one is always funny, we enlisted the french to defeat the british.

    Hmm. French jokes are so 2000s. It was funnier in my head before I typed it.

    Point being that both Amb. Stevens and the whistleblowers are the sort of Liberals I respect and knew - as someone put it, they live where Obama's fantasy-land buts up against reality. Stevens paid the price for his belief in the Arab Spring and the rebels in Libya; the whistleblowers are aghast to see that their superiors don't have the professionalism and honesty that they deserve to receive.
    Sure. However, our secret meetings with the Taliban doesn't rise to treason, because Bush pointedly never "declared war" on them (as they're servants to the Pakistani ISI) - where these are self-described members of an Al Quaeda franchise.
    How can you in your head realize the world is a complicated place full of shades of grey, then all the sudden snap back to the world of black and white? i suspect it happens when we say the magic word:

    OBAMA!


    OK, Steve, you keep rocking back and forth mumbling that. This isn't to say that Obama <will> be impeached over it; we don't have the guts as a Nation to do so.
    The guts? Brazen disregard for what the rest of us think is not something the House GOP lacks. What they lack is something treasonous to pin on Obama. For cripes sake, the guy was asleep! Just keep beating the drum of incompetence and I wouldn't have argued. Impeachment is silliness.



    More falsehoods on your part. Here's why: you are a Progressive because you want to put the Federal Gov't in the position of the ultimate authority in all matters, and have made a number of statements on a variety of issues to that effect. The Founders were correct in recognizing that as abysmal stupidity, which is why they attempted to cripple the Feds and make the individual States the authorities in all matters not obviously requiring Federal jurisdiction.
    Sometimes things should be handled at the state level, somethings at the federal. i admire your desire for strict adherence to the constitution, but sometimes matters of justice need to be universally applied to all citizens. Slavery for example needed to be banned by the feds because the south wasn't going to stop. *** marriage is one that's happening now--we've been over that a lot. But a handle full of single issues where the feds need to step in doesn't mean the states have no rights or place. It's like someone said obama and you snapped back to the black and white world again.

  2. #72
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I'm surprised you don't understand this better. You've never sent an email for the sole purpose of if something goes wrong, you could say you weren't to blame?
    Yes and no; this goes beyond simple CYA. I'm actually in such a position now - when "leadership" refuses to lead, it's extremely hard to circumvent their actions so the best you can do is either lodge a protest (which was done) or quit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    You seriously want me to believe that Obama is "in bed with" AQ? Come on. Do we give them weapons so they'll fight people we don't like? Yes, we do that a lot. It's dumb, but we do. That's not treason, that's just an overreach of the covert arm of our foreign relations. We've been doing that since before I was born.
    See if you can follow along here. Sure, we deal with bad actors all the time; it more or less comes with the territory in the Third World (though normally the Socialist Democrats are SHOCKED that we snuggle up with people like Pinochet or the House of Saud). The difference here is that we're running guns not to an Al Quaeda franchise (who are some of the people who Dept of State vetted for embassy security) but to Al Quaeda itself. THAT's what THE WON can't afford to have become recognized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I don't know the actual number of people who've died in embassy attacks through history, but if we looked it up I bet more than 4 died under Bush. (people, not ambassadors).
    Probably. As I recall, all those deaths were in Iraq, though they could have been in Afghanistan. So? More people died at embassies under Clinton than under Bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    this post is getting repetitive.
    And again, 'bad people' <> our enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Your version of treason is anything that helped the "enemy". So if a fat kid registers for selective service, because he's fat and couldn't properly defend us, he's a traitor. Words have meanings, and you as usual, don't like them so you use them differently.
    That's hilarious, coming from you. Plus, your analogy is asinine. However, if someone purposefully put an incompetent fat kid in the line of fire in order to ensure an enemy attack was successful (which happens to be the essence of the claim against FDR), and not for strategic purposes, then yes indeedy, treason is the appropriate term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    BTW, to be clear, I don't think Obama is a traitor.
    I'm not saying or thinking it either, TBH. However, SOMEONE definitely seems to be; Gen. Ham being relieved of command for trying to launch relief forces IS a treasonous act for all appearances.

    I'm still thinking it's the Slumlady in Chief, Valerie Jarrett. She's the one who wanted to stop Bin Laden's killing also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I do think he went to sleep that night.
    I'm thinking he and his "body man" were doing something that was... not to be interrupted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    How can you in your head realize the world is a complicated place full of shades of grey, then all the sudden snap back to the world of black and white?
    When will you get it through your skull that bad actors aren't necessarily enemies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Sometimes things should be handled at the state level, somethings at the federal.
    Almost nothing. Why do you strain so hard to put your life into my hands? You have no way to control me, very little ability to monitor me, and pretty much no way to prevent me from ruining you. You (and Techno) IMAGINE that because you're one of the Party faithful, you won't be my targets, but that's stupidity. I'll be watching out for myself, not for you, and if I'm one of the good guys I'll try more often than not to keep from abusing my authoritay.

    DISCLAIMER - All views I express are my own and do not represent the Dept. of Defense, the IRS, the DoJ, or Hillary Clinton's VRWC. However, I <<CAN>> ruin you on a whim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Slavery for example needed to be banned by the feds because the south wasn't going to stop.
    Since I've had to teach you history before, you should probably know that the States fought a war that settled the matter. THEN the Democrats in the Federal Gov't decided to implement segregation, and it caused a hell of a lot of unnecessary grief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    *** marriage is one that's happening now--we've been over that a lot.
    As I've pointed out, one which is in no way deserving of Federal intervention, and is caused in a roundabout way by Federal overreach on what is none of Fed Gov't business.

  3. #73
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    See Republicans don't get Politics.

    Your all TLDR

    You have to keep it simple to Win.



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    Last edited by BobCox2; 24-05-2013 at 10:15.

  4. #74
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    See Republicans don't get Politics.

    Your all TLDR

    You have to keep it simple to Win.



    Paid for by the Friends of America Party
    You just won my thread.

  5. #75
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Magic 8-Bob is magic

  6. #76
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    More on-topic - <actually> on topic, that is -
    Under Pressure, Pigford Lawyers Hire Lobbyists

    "With increased scrutiny of fraud allegations in the Pigford farmers' settlements, the lead Pigford co-counsel has enlisted the help of two lobbying firms. One of the lobbyists listed is Phil Fraas, an attorney who has been deeply involved in creating the settlements. "

    The statement is a bit off-base, really; the problem wasn't the Pigford farmers who had the original case (and haven't benefited from it much), but all the non-farmers who "tried to farm" that were signed up for what essentially were reparations payments.

  7. #77
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Bob that was fantastic.

    Merv, don't drink and post. WTF is this:

    Almost nothing. Why do you strain so hard to put your life into my hands? You have no way to control me, very little ability to monitor me, and pretty much no way to prevent me from ruining you. You (and Techno) IMAGINE that because you're one of the Party faithful, you won't be my targets, but that's stupidity. I'll be watching out for myself, not for you, and if I'm one of the good guys I'll try more often than not to keep from abusing my authoritay.
    Are you starting an armed insurrection now?

    Also, you're way over there and i am of no strategic importance. I think i'm safe unless you get even nuttier and specifically target me. But you wouldn't do that. You'd miss me too much.

  8. #78
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Are you starting an armed insurrection now?
    Hardly. I'm Big Brother, and you're claiming to be very happy to let me victimize you repeatedly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Also, you're way over there and i am of no strategic importance. I think i'm safe unless you get even nuttier and specifically target me. But you wouldn't do that. You'd miss me too much.
    You really think that? The faceless, incompetent bureaucrat won't just pick you out for "special treatment", even randomly? You're apparently FAR less intelligent than I presumed.

  9. #79
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Is either Steve or Merv reading what the other guy is posting?

    They ought to, it's hilarious!

  10. #80
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Pigford, or what's wrong with America.

    Loz~
    Everything was going along fine. I was going to respond to #72, but in the middle he got a little crazy. Apparently, Obama is ***, and Jmerv is going to kill me then try to overthrow the government (or he thinks he already IS the government...the line isn't clear to me). Either way, i submit a proposal to change the plan and have all attempts at my life moved to AFTER the attempts to overthrow the government. I'm more of a dessert than an entree anyhow.


    Anyway, when he recovers, can you let him know that he's really focused on the wrong scandal. Benghazi is trumped up silliness, whereas the IRS deal is a real scandal. One might argue the scandal isn't that they targeted right wing 504s, but that they didn't also target left wing 504s (since 504's aren't supposed to be political). Details, I suppose but either way, it's a real and actual scandal. It may not lead back to Obama, but in the aftermath I feel like no one is really doing anything about it but shuffling some chairs around.

    Then last night I heard that Eric Holder may have perjured himself over the Fox News security leaks thing. The fox news thing was legal but dirty politics, perjury is a crime. So that's potentially an actual scandal. This seems to be the scandal thread, so we'll see if we get a conherent Jmerv on monday.

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