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  1. #11
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Super-easy divorce? We will see .

    Granting each others the same rights as in a marriage will obviously lead to the same problems like those during a regular divorce. You will still have to split up things and if the one has a different idea of what belongs whom and insists on it or what would be worse, if the divorce is of the dirty kind and hate, greed, envy etc. is involved, you will find yourself in a courtroom, facing an opponent who isn't interested in a compromise, but who might want to destroy your life.

    If you have children then, prepare for things becoming a bit more emotional.

    Quote Originally Posted by nurman View Post
    Seems like "***" is being censored. Just substitute it with "happy".
    OK, but I won't reply "straight" with "unhappy" .

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Frankly the government shouldn't even be in the marriage business. Marriage is a tradition, and thus should be left to the communities and churches, not the bureaucrats. On a utilitarian level, it's little more than recognition that a couple are devoted to each other and sharing their lives together. But I can see some of the practical concerns in terms of the law, such as who gets what after a partner dies and whatnot.
    I can agree to that in a way, in addition to who gets what after a divorce, to protect people from being abused or to force them to care for those who depend on them. I see no reason why the state shouldn't grant certain rights to homosexual or lesbian couples. At the end, it's just making a contract in the registry office. If religion demands ownership of the term "marriage", a different term in the text of the law can be used.

    In contrast, any church is free to give or deny their blessing to any kind of couple, as they see fit. For example, the Catholic church will never, ever give marriage to them. So if a "happy" couple wants to marry, Catholicism is the wrong religion for them. People cannot expect that a church accepts them if thedifference between their views oppose to that extent. For catholics, god hates homosexuals, so why should somebody be catholic if he lives in a homosexual partnership?

    I'm not religious BTW.

    I'm not sure if I want non-straight couples to adopt children, however. The top concern is the welfare of the children while the rights of people regarding discriminazation have to stay behind and I'm not sure about the consequences for them. I'm not saying that homosexuals are potential child molestors, but apart from developing somewhat disturbing views about what's "normal", the children will probably be subject to a lot of teasing if the other children find it out.

    I could probably live better with lesbian couples adopting children than with homosexuals, but that may be a matter of prejudice. I simply feel uncomfortable with it.
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  2. #12
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    Super-easy divorce? We will see .

    Granting each others the same rights as in a marriage will obviously lead to the same problems like those during a regular divorce. You will still have to split up things and if the one has a different idea of what belongs whom and insists on it or what would be worse, if the divorce is of the dirty kind and hate, greed, envy etc. is involved, you will find yourself in a courtroom, facing an opponent who isn't interested in a compromise, but who might want to destroy your life.

    If you have children then, prepare for things becoming a bit more emotional.
    Agreed, you'll always have problems, but even married couples who divorce willingly and without any demands are still sentenced to a 2 year court visit, whereas a divorce while living together can be concluded much more swiftly and problemless if need be.

    (average cost to get married: €25, average cost to get divorced: $2000 => if all goes well, and it takes years)
    (average cost of signing "live together" and divorcing "live together": $0 => if all goes well, will take no more than a few weeks)

    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    OK, but I won't reply "straight" with "unhappy" .
    Actually, wasn't the original meaning of *** "to be/feel happy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    I can agree to that in a way, in addition to who gets what after a divorce, to protect people from being abused or to force them to care for those who depend on them. I see no reason why the state shouldn't grant certain rights to homosexual or lesbian couples. At the end, it's just making a contract in the registry office. If religion demands ownership of the term "marriage", a different term in the text of the law can be used.

    In contrast, any church is free to give or deny their blessing to any kind of couple, as they see fit. For example, the Catholic church will never, ever give marriage to them. So if a "happy" couple wants to marry, Catholicism is the wrong religion for them. People cannot expect that a church accepts them if thedifference between their views oppose to that extent. For catholics, god hates homosexuals, so why should somebody be catholic if he lives in a homosexual partnership?

    I'm not religious BTW.
    Wrong religion? I can't think of any religion that would allow same-gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    I'm not sure if I want non-straight couples to adopt children, however. The top concern is the welfare of the children while the rights of people regarding discriminazation have to stay behind and I'm not sure about the consequences for them. I'm not saying that homosexuals are potential child molestors, but apart from developing somewhat disturbing views about what's "normal", the children will probably be subject to a lot of teasing if the other children find it out.

    I could probably live better with lesbian couples adopting children than with homosexuals, but that may be a matter of prejudice. I simply feel uncomfortable with it.
    Generally, lesbians couples are slightly more accepted than homosexuals couples by most people (I'm guessing because of the "bed" content sounds nastier, and because of the "adption" content, women still make better mothers, which have more influence with raising children, globally seen)

  3. #13
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Slight technicality: lesbians are homosexual.

    Dr. Money believed that children need both strong father and mother role models to develop optimally. But, this is quite old research. Even if it is true, an adopted child is far better off in the hands of a caring family of any kind rather than a state institution.

  4. #14
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    Slight technicality: lesbians are homosexual.

    Dr. Money believed that children need both strong father and mother role models to develop optimally. But, this is quite old research. Even if it is true, an adopted child is far better off in the hands of a caring family of any kind rather than a state institution.
    You know what I meant :-)

  5. #15
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    As far as Church goes, does the "happy" community actually want to get married in a Church?

    All I hear is they want to right to get married, and the Church is opposed, but "happy" people (sofar) only seem to care about the Law marriage, not the Church marriage?
    I don't think that the majority of homosexuals actually want to get marries in a church, no. There are some that would though. There are Homosexual Christians, and I would imagine them wanting to get married in a church.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    We are talking about the jewish weddings right?

    *** Marriage?
    lol, yes, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Frankly the government shouldn't even be in the marriage business. Marriage is a tradition, and thus should be left to the communities and churches, not the bureaucrats. On a utilitarian level, it's little more than recognition that a couple are devoted to each other and sharing their lives together. But I can see some of the practical concerns in terms of the law, such as who gets what after a partner dies and whatnot.
    That is a fair belief. But they kinda need to be, and calling every non-religious marriage a civil union would be annoying, to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    Why use such extremely old information (thousands of years, that's a bit outdated, no?) I don't consult cave art for medical advice. Maybe you could revise your views based on modern research?

    It seems god hasn't bothered to update his ruleset regarding computers, space travel, etc. I guess he's a runaway dad, and shouldn't have a say in matters of the heart. He hasn't addressed this issue of making the vast majority of women yearn for happy experiences at some point in their lives. It seems like a sick prank to create human psychology that way and then threaten to torture us indefinitely for it.
    The age of the information is irrelevant, and quite frankly saying something 2000+ years old is irrelevant is a ridiculous statement when you consider that people think the earth is millions of years old. But since you mentioned cavemen stuff, we could look at the most popular diet right now.

    God hasn't updated his ruleset because it hasn't changed. I don't tell my kids every day that they can't drive my car, because the rule didn't change since yesterday. Human nature is sinful. It's my human nature to sin in many other ways, just not homosexually. Just because it's my nature to do something doesn't make it right. Some people feel the desire to murder people, but I doubt you're going to try to argue that that's ok since it's human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash Housewares View Post
    Is it strange that I'm one of the few not too lazy to type out homosexual? Asterisks be damned!

    This issue seems to be progressing at about the rate it ought to, so I don't see anything to worry about, change is coming, slowly, but its coming. The next step will be regarding adoption laws, there is already a lot of friction there with homosexual couples trying to adopt children and no clear answers to quiet critics. I haven't read up on the subject in a number of years, but it used to be that a homosexual couple's only real avenue into adoption was via children with AIDS or other conditions that removed them from the "normal" adoption pool.

    Fighting against homosexual unions is over as a battle, as an issue it is resolving itself slowly; the right of people to be together and be recognized as such seems intuitive enough to have superseded prejudice against the particulars. I hope there isn't any backsliding, I don't see any reason for it.
    It's a silent protest against the word filter

    I really don't see any reason to not allow adoption. It does kinda weirds me out a bit putting kids in a non traditional home like that, but it's just something I need to get used to. I think that it will be hard for some kids to be in that situation, but homosexuality is much more prevalent these days. And I don't mean that more people are homosexuals, just that more people aren't hiding it. My opinion is that most people who want to adopt really want kids and they will try hard at being good parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post

    I could probably live better with lesbian couples adopting children than with homosexuals, but that may be a matter of prejudice. I simply feel uncomfortable with it.
    Yea, I think that's the general stigma that most people have. Thinking about lesbians marrying and adopting is far easier to accept than *** men.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    Slight technicality: lesbians are homosexual.

    Dr. Money believed that children need both strong father and mother role models to develop optimally. But, this is quite old research. Even if it is true, an adopted child is far better off in the hands of a caring family of any kind rather than a state institution.
    Yea, what I said above. I still think that you are best off with 1 of each, but how many kids of a heterosexual family actually have a strong male and female parent that is involved and are not divorced or never married to begin with. I just don't think it's going to be a big problem.

    The other thing that makes me think it's ok is the fact that homosexuals are generally much more open minded. Just because they are homosexual doesn't mean that they are going to force their views on their kids and try to make them ***.

  6. #16
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    I'm not religious. I don't practice any particular religion's views, but I do believe that the universe was created by some ultimate being who set some kind of plan in motion. So for me, homosexuality isn't against my beliefs. I also don't see how it is perverse, wrong, or unclean.

    I had been dating my fiance for about 8 years before I asked her to marry me. Why get married if it is a "religious" concept? Because it's the legal union of two people. If you introduce your partner as your girlfriend to people, then most all of them won't regard it as a very serious relationship. I want people to see how committed we are to each other, and I want to be able to call her my wife. After a while the term "girlfriend" doesn't hold enough meaning to even remotely describe the relationship.

    I imagine it's the same way for non-religious homosexual couples. They want a more serious title, or they want to be closer to God. I don't know which, but the reasons for denying it are mostly ignorance.

    To say that homosexuality is perverse is just stupid. The only people that shouldn't be able to understand that you get to chose the person you love are people who believe in arranged marriage. People who consider themselves religious usually pick and choose what rules they follow as well. I know plenty of Catholics who have had "protected" sex 100's of times before marriage, and with multiple partners. Yet, the Catholic church is pretty straightforward about only having sex in a marriage, and never for any other reason than to produce a child. How is this so overlooked, while homosexuality is a sin worth humiliating someone over? Also, I'm 26 and a virgin. Something that is usually followed by a gasp. We chose to wait until marriage and that started because my fiance was a practicing Catholic. Most of my "religious" friends can't wrap their mind around this, and none of them we're virgins going into their marriages. However, a little less than half of them think that homosexuality is a sin.

    To say that a "household" needs a father and mother figure is left up to interpretation. My Catholic father divorced my Jewish mother when I was 9. My father is a very sought after engineer in his field so he was hardly home to begin with. This story isn't unique to me. There are millions of single parent households that we're broken up by a divorce, as well as people that have children who aren't fit to raise them. There is no nationwide scolding of these "sins" and the world has seemed to have accepted it.

    Like others have said, homosexuality is finally becoming more accepted and those who still find it "wrong" are slowly shutting up or changing their minds. Most any argument against it is out of some fear, or ignorance. Those who thinks it's a sin because their bible says so, should take a look at their own lives before condemning others. Are you practicing everything your religion teaches exactly as it is stated? If not, then why pick and choose which parts others get to practice.

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    Last edited by tougeznut; 25-04-2013 at 16:49.

  7. #17
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    [burblesnip]
    Phew. Well, this was sudden and unexpected.

    kegs, this isn't a "No" but I cannot accept your proposal right now. There's a lot for me to think about.

    Of course, I am flattered ... but I just don't see me going with this. Can I give you your answer soon? I need time.

  8. #18
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    I'm not religious. I don't practice any particular religion's views, but I do believe that the universe was created by some ultimate being who set some kind of plan in motion. So for me, homosexuality isn't against my beliefs. I also don't see how it is perverse, wrong, or unclean.

    I had been dating my fiance for about 8 years before I asked her to marry me. Why get married if it is a "religious" concept? Because it's the legal union of two people. If you introduce your partner as your girlfriend to people, then most all of them won't regard it as a very serious relationship. I want people to see how committed we are to each other, and I want to be able to call her my wife. After a while the term "girlfriend" doesn't hold enough meaning to even remotely describe the relationship.

    I imagine it's the same way for non-religious homosexual couples. They want a more serious title, or they want to be closer to God. I don't know which, but the reasons for denying it are mostly ignorance.

    To say that homosexuality is perverse is just stupid. The only people that shouldn't be able to understand that you get to chose the person you love are people who believe in arranged marriage. People who consider themselves religious usually pick and choose what rules they follow as well. I know plenty of Catholics who have had "protected" sex 100's of times before marriage, and with multiple partners. Yet, the Catholic church is pretty straightforward about only having sex in a marriage, and never for any other reason than to produce a child. How is this so overlooked, while homosexuality is a sin worth humiliating someone over? Also, I'm 26 and a virgin. Something that is usually followed by a gasp. We chose to wait until marriage and that started because my fiance was a practicing Catholic. Most of my "religious" friends can't wrap their mind around this, and none of them we're virgins going into their marriages. However, a little less than half of them think that homosexuality is a sin.

    To say that a "household" needs a father and mother figure is left up to interpretation. My Catholic father divorced my Jewish mother when I was 9. My father is a very sought after engineer in his field so he was hardly home to begin with. This story isn't unique to me. There are millions of single parent households that we're broken up by a divorce, as well as people that have children who aren't fit to raise them. There is no nationwide scolding of these "sins" and the world has seemed to have accepted it.

    Like others have said, homosexuality is finally becoming more accepted and those who still find it "wrong" are slowly shutting up or changing their minds. Most any argument against it is out of some fear, or ignorance. Those who thinks it's a sin because their bible says so, should take a look at their own lives before condemning others. Are you practicing everything your religion teaches exactly as it is stated? If not, then why pick and choose which parts others get to practice.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
    Thanks for sharing your story, that's really interesting. You are right that people can seem to pick and choose what they want to follow and what they don't. I didn't have sex before I was married either, but I think that's the extreme minority of people, including Christians.

    It's not me that's saying that it's a sin, it's God. I can't speak for other people, but I struggle with sin also. I'm not trying to say that *** people are sinners and I'm not, we're all sinners. But you're absolutely right that people need to look at their own lives before criticizing others. The fact us that God doesn't hate *** people. He doesn't hate anyone. He loves *** people just as much as he loves me.

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    Phew. Well, this was sudden and unexpected.

    kegs, this isn't a "No" but I cannot accept your proposal right now. There's a lot for me to think about.

    Of course, I am flattered ... but I just don't see me going with this. Can I give you your answer soon? I need time.
    Pretty sure there was no offer attached to my post

  9. #19
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    [...]

    Pretty sure there was no offer attached to my post
    Oh keggy, don't be embarrassed. You were just caught up in the moment, is all. No harm no foul

  10. #20
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    You know what I meant :-)
    More so directed at Krischan. We have words for male-specific homosexuals, but those are probably censored too.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    The age of the information is irrelevant, and quite frankly saying something 2000+ years old is irrelevant is a ridiculous statement when you consider that people think the earth is millions of years old.
    I would argue the age of the information is vital. People in biblical times knew nothing of germ theory, social sciences, or science in general to just name a few. Generally, the older the information is, the lesser its accuracy. Those people had life spans less than a third of ours, so it surprises me that so many people today trust the level of knowledge millennia ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    God hasn't updated his ruleset because it hasn't changed. I don't tell my kids every day that they can't drive my car, because the rule didn't change since yesterday. Human nature is sinful. It's my human nature to sin in many other ways, just not homosexually. Just because it's my nature to do something doesn't make it right.
    To carry out the analogy, I think your kids would deserve an update on the rules if you had a spaceship in your driveway, or child-sized jet packs. Technology runs our lives beyond our ancestors' wildest dreams, and god doesn't have an opinion the matter? We learned years ago that homosexuality is determined by hormonal conditions in the womb (it's not a lifestyle choice), so I think god has some explaining to do regarding why he hates babies. All I'm asking for is consistency.

    (Btw, I'm naturalist. I'm so bad!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    I really don't see any reason to not allow adoption. It does kinda weirds me out a bit putting kids in a non traditional home like that, but it's just something I need to get used to. I think that it will be hard for some kids to be in that situation, but homosexuality is much more prevalent these days. And I don't mean that more people are homosexuals, just that more people aren't hiding it. My opinion is that most people who want to adopt really want kids and they will try hard at being good parents.
    I'm guessing it would have some effect on children, but this is the least of their problems: public schools, poverty, parents working far more hours than, say, 20 years ago, rising obesity/diabetes epidemics, unending tuition hikes, national debt they're expected to pay off for their elders and strangers who died 40 years ago (ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha--they won't even be literate, let alone comprehend all those 0s!), etc. Children today are in ruins. There's not much left for homosexual parents to mess up, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    I still think that you are best off with 1 of each, but how many kids of a heterosexual family actually have a strong male and female parent that is involved and are not divorced or never married to begin with. I just don't think it's going to be a big problem.
    I agree there.

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    I'm not religious. I don't practice any particular religion's views, but I do believe that the universe was created by some ultimate being who set some kind of plan in motion. So for me, homosexuality isn't against my beliefs.
    I think that counts as deist.

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    Also, I'm 26 and a virgin. Something that is usually followed by a gasp. We chose to wait until marriage and that started because my fiance was a practicing Catholic. Most of my "religious" friends can't wrap their mind around this, and none of them we're virgins going into their marriages.
    One problem that comes up with that is: what if one of you ends up having a much higher sex drive (usually the male) than the other, and this is only discovered after you are married? Imo, it's best to find out each others' preferences before marriage. Sexual dissatisfaction often leads to divorce. People are highly sexual beings; some would argue that you don't even know her completely if you don't understand her sexual preferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    To say that a "household" needs a father and mother figure is left up to interpretation.
    No, science can give the right answers. However, at this point in our history, providing any sort of ideal home environment for children requires vast wealth and parents with brain type A, whatever that is. And, darnit, the entire community must be just so perfect as well...bring in the slaves to pay for all this (the slaves being children. Oh, what a mess).

    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    There are millions of single parent households that we're broken up by a divorce, as well as people that have children who aren't fit to raise them. There is no nationwide scolding of these "sins" and the world has seemed to have accepted it.
    That's a good point. As I mentioned elsewhere, children are born to be servants/slaves to their elders. We scold Africans for having so many kids and watching many of them die so the parents will have family to take care of them in their senior years. However, we in North America have kids to pay for our elders' entitlements. Why we aren't beating our elders to death with shovels is a mystery to me.

    It seems clear to me that the whole rule against homosexual activity (in Leviticus, I believe, if we go ahead and trust the countless people who plugged in and removed stories) is just there because homosexual couples don't produce kids to join the religion.

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