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  1. #31
    IncGamers Member Ash Housewares's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    *** is censored, is nazi censored? I bet not

    edit - yep, I remember making this complaint before, you tend to get deja vu when you spend this long on the interwebs

  2. #32
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    I think you've all heard and seen enough of where I am on this. but a quick TL;DR for anyone new, or asleep...

    Gays should have whatever rights and benefits were confer on married couples. As long as there are specific rights and benefits we confer on hetero couples, the gays should have them too.

    WHile there might be some arguments that gays don't parent as well (though thus far, I've seen one study that had a lot of holes in it), frankly, we don't really know that, but two parents seems to me to be generally better than one, so I don't mind letting them adopt if they so desire.

    Oh, and I think churches should be able to reserve the right to not marry people they don't want to for whatever silly reason they want to come up with. Churches are essentially a club, even if they do get massive subsidies from the state. I'd rather let them pick who to marry, and stop giving them special tax treatment.


    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    You can argue that, but I still disagree. And people in biblical times (old testament) had life spans far exceeding our current ones.
    I find that unlikely since there was less understanding of how our bodies worked and no understanding of germs/infection. I think 50 would've seemed rather old in the stone age. Look at egypt as an example, the pharoahs, which had the best food, and best medicine of the time, and only a couple ruled for even 40 years. There's no reason to think they were living longer than that before that time.

    Yes, an update on rules is then appropriate. I think the bible pretty well covers any technology advances, at least ones that I can think of off the top of my head.
    Does the bible comment on what it means to be sentient? If I disassembled an android, would that be murder? How about cloning? Stem cells? How about growing a heart in a lab and putting it in a human? For cyborgs, how much man needs to remain to be considered "alive"? How about growing a human heart in another ape species and then harvesting the heart to save the human? I've flipped through leviticus several times and didn't see a whole lot about those top of the head technological ethical issues.

    The catholics though, they have--outside the bible--really spent some time debating these things. i don't know all their positions, since really I don't care until they make the news, but they had to do a lot of work because the answers weren't in the bible.

    I don't disagree that people are born with a homosexual desire. I don't actually know that much about the subject, but I believe it is likely true. Everyone is born with tendencies towards sin. It just looks different for different people.
    I'm not sure sexuality is really a genetic thing (since we've been unable to locate a specific defect taht might cause it). i think it's probably a combination of hormonal imbalances at key points in development, combined with complicated and difficult to test for reactions to environmental factors. Occasionally, it's a conscious choice--though not usually.

    I had a friend come out in college. She was in several long term *** relationships until about 30, when she suddenly met a guy and had a baby. THen I also know a couple guys that say they always kinda knew since they were kids. So just from my limited experience with knowing people willing to tell their tale, it's not a "born with it" thing in the same way race is.

    Not that it really matters "why", what I really care about is that they are treated fairly.


    yea, very true.
    I dunno. I think kids are just whiners. I'm sure we were whiners too, but there weren't that many people on the internet back then, so no one knew we were whining.


    That is almost verbatim for what my dad told me before I got married.
    Good advice, but in my experience (and I have a bit), not having shared goals often makes women second guess whether they want to stick around for the long term, no matter how good or bad the sex is. Sometimes the sex gets better when they're having second thoughts, because they feel bad and want to make it up to you, so they put on the try hard.

    ***

    Second welcome to tougeznut for being a solid addition. Much better than that sentient spambot named jessica that we had a couple weeks back.

  3. #33
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I think you've all heard and seen enough of where I am on this. but a quick TL;DR for anyone new, or asleep...

    Gays should have whatever rights and benefits were confer on married couples. As long as there are specific rights and benefits we confer on hetero couples, the gays should have them too.

    WHile there might be some arguments that gays don't parent as well (though thus far, I've seen one study that had a lot of holes in it), frankly, we don't really know that, but two parents seems to me to be generally better than one, so I don't mind letting them adopt if they so desire.

    Oh, and I think churches should be able to reserve the right to not marry people they don't want to for whatever silly reason they want to come up with. Churches are essentially a club, even if they do get massive subsidies from the state. I'd rather let them pick who to marry, and stop giving them special tax treatment.
    cool, we mostly agree than.



    I find that unlikely since there was less understanding of how our bodies worked and no understanding of germs/infection. I think 50 would've seemed rather old in the stone age. Look at egypt as an example, the pharoahs, which had the best food, and best medicine of the time, and only a couple ruled for even 40 years. There's no reason to think they were living longer than that before that time.
    Except that the bible specifically says on numerous occasions that people did live longer

    Does the bible comment on what it means to be sentient? If I disassembled an android, would that be murder? How about cloning? Stem cells? How about growing a heart in a lab and putting it in a human? For cyborgs, how much man needs to remain to be considered "alive"? How about growing a human heart in another ape species and then harvesting the heart to save the human? I've flipped through leviticus several times and didn't see a whole lot about those top of the head technological ethical issues.
    Actually, on further thought I thought about the whole cloning/stem cell/ whatever issue as well. Not real sure about that, but I'll just err on the side of cation there. I don't see an issue with transplants and such, and cloning type stuff really isn't that big of a deal I guess, as long as people still have their own minds. Which I assume is true, again I'm not well versed on the subject.


    I'm not sure sexuality is really a genetic thing (since we've been unable to locate a specific defect taht might cause it). i think it's probably a combination of hormonal imbalances at key points in development, combined with complicated and difficult to test for reactions to environmental factors. Occasionally, it's a conscious choice--though not usually.

    I had a friend come out in college. She was in several long term *** relationships until about 30, when she suddenly met a guy and had a baby. THen I also know a couple guys that say they always kinda knew since they were kids. So just from my limited experience with knowing people willing to tell their tale, it's not a "born with it" thing in the same way race is.
    I didn't exactly mean it was genetic, but similar to what you are saying. Again, I don't really know that well and I find it largely irrelevant to the way I feel anyways. I've also known many people that knew they were homosexual from a very early age, or at least thought they might be.





    I dunno. I think kids are just whiners. I'm sure we were whiners too, but there weren't that many people on the internet back then, so no one knew we were whining.
    This is very true. The information age is a tricky one.


    Good advice, but in my experience (and I have a bit), not having shared goals often makes women second guess whether they want to stick around for the long term, no matter how good or bad the sex is. Sometimes the sex gets better when they're having second thoughts, because they feel bad and want to make it up to you, so they put on the try hard.

    ***

    Second welcome to tougeznut for being a solid addition. Much better than that sentient spambot named jessica that we had a couple weeks back.
    The good news is that neither of you will have anything to compare it to, so it will be the BEST SEX EVAR!!!!

  4. #34
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!


  5. #35
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    Except that the bible specifically says on numerous occasions that people did live longer
    The bible says a lot of things that are probably not true, and occasionally things that are downright wrong. Especially when it pertains to amounts of time. Oh and back on topic--it has a blurb or two about that too. (Well, not the marriage bit per se, but there was not a lot of old testament love for the gays). Romans says you're supposed to put them to death.

    Actually, on further thought I thought about the whole cloning/stem cell/ whatever issue as well. Not real sure about that, but I'll just err on the side of cation there. I don't see an issue with transplants and such, and cloning type stuff really isn't that big of a deal I guess, as long as people still have their own minds. Which I assume is true, again I'm not well versed on the subject.
    Cloning essentially makes a "test tube" identical twin. They slurp DNA out of someone's cells, and put them in a zygote, and implant it. With some luck, and lots of tries, it grows to make a person with the same DNA. As far as we know, no one has done this artificially. Technically identical twins are natural clones. They have their own mind.

    Jmerv recently said his aunt had a telepathic link (sorta, only worked for dramatic events) with her twin. I'm a bit skeptical, of course, but I doubt he was lying, I think he really thinks it happened. I find that sort of thing intriguing. It's too bad the only way to experiment on it is to kill one of the two twins.

    I didn't exactly mean it was genetic, but similar to what you are saying. Again, I don't really know that well and I find it largely irrelevant to the way I feel anyways. I've also known many people that knew they were homosexual from a very early age, or at least thought they might be.
    I don't particularly care either, but the born with it thing is overblown. You're not *** at 6 months old. you don't even know what that means. Heck, I don't think kids understand that girls and boys are different until they're around a couple years. I get that often they don't feel like they chose it, but sexuality is a spectrum. It's just most of us are on one side.

    Psychology is a weird and complicated thing. People are mostly F'ed up in the head. I mean think about what had to happen to our collective psyche to decide we're going to take a wolf, inbreed the heck out of it and then dress it in a christmas sweater. The fact that we're not weirded out by this picture is proof that society has issues.
    dog-christmas-sweater-costumes.jpg




    The good news is that neither of you will have anything to compare it to, so it will be the BEST SEX EVAR!!!!
    winner-by-default-Men-Burgundy.png

  6. #36
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    I don't understand her point. She's with one person, so if she wants to get married, marriage equality would allow her to. Just because the Exes are helping raise the kids doesn't mean they need to be married. She's arguing about who's parenting the kids. That's separate. I don't think it's unusual for couples to break up and get remarried and put their new spouses down as emergency contacts or whatnot. The only difference is she's ***.

  7. #37
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    I'm not sure sexuality is really a genetic thing (since we've been unable to locate a specific defect taht might cause it). i think it's probably a combination of hormonal imbalances at key points in development, combined with complicated and difficult to test for reactions to environmental factors. Occasionally, it's a conscious choice--though not usually.


    We haven't found the gene for intelligence. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Intelligence is ~70% heritable, meaning that in a population, 70% of the variance can be attributed to genetic factors. In other words, intelligence is extremely linked to our genes...but we don't have a specific intelligence gene. We have guesses and we have animal clues, but we have almost zero proof that the genetic trait is on chromosome (n), arm (x), locus (whatever).

    In reality, most complex traits such as intelligence, sexuality, mental illness, artistic talent, and so on are multi-loci. There are genes that toggle a risk for schizophrenia, but we don't know how many are required, which are necessary or sufficient, and in what combination. It is extremely likely that sexuality is the same way. I'm guessing there hasn't been much research because no one wants to fund it. This is probably due to the bias that people choose homosexuality, though why someone would choose to be so different that whole religions pass laws to kill you is beyond me.

    People think of genetics in such a simplistic way: the gene for hair color. The gene for obesity. The gene for height. The reality is that almost none of our normal functioning is tied to a single sequence. The media and utter lack of scientific education is to blame for this. People are bad at complexity. They want a pat answer. THIS is the gene. Well, no. This is A gene. With 100 others, we might know where whatever comes from.

    I want *** marriage because medical professionals are too bigoted and stupid to obey power of attorney documents. It's a remarkably convenient thing to ignore a legal document because your lolGod doesn't agree with sexuality.

    And by the way...I'm a big ol' Hebrew. A Conservative Hebrew. We have this thing called the Torah, which is your "Old Testament". The Conservative Jewish movement recognizes homosexuality as an innate trait and formally blesses/recognizes *** marriage. So if your group uses the Torah in one way, and mine uses it in another, who is right? (The answer? The Hebrews. We were here first.)
    Last edited by Anyee; 01-05-2013 at 07:25. Reason: *** is still censored after a decade.

  8. #38
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anyee View Post
    I want *** marriage because medical professionals are too bigoted and stupid to obey power of attorney documents. It's a remarkably convenient thing to ignore a legal document because your lolGod doesn't agree with sexuality.
    That's about the best argument I have heard for it so Congratulations.

    But... I want to fire those people as they are not doing the job instead.

    Again Your treating a symptom, If you live in a minority group with your own rules your going to be a source of conflicts with other minority groups and a pain in the *** to the majority if your vocal about it.

    Dang the *** showed up again.

    and it was not *** or *** this time.

  9. #39
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anyee View Post


    We haven't found the gene for intelligence. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Intelligence is ~70% heritable, meaning that in a population, 70% of the variance can be attributed to genetic factors. In other words, intelligence is extremely linked to our genes...but we don't have a specific intelligence gene. We have guesses and we have animal clues, but we have almost zero proof that the genetic trait is on chromosome (n), arm (x), locus (whatever).

    In reality, most complex traits such as intelligence, sexuality, mental illness, artistic talent, and so on are multi-loci. There are genes that toggle a risk for schizophrenia, but we don't know how many are required, which are necessary or sufficient, and in what combination. It is extremely likely that sexuality is the same way. I'm guessing there hasn't been much research because no one wants to fund it. This is probably due to the bias that people choose homosexuality, though why someone would choose to be so different that whole religions pass laws to kill you is beyond me.

    People think of genetics in such a simplistic way: the gene for hair color. The gene for obesity. The gene for height. The reality is that almost none of our normal functioning is tied to a single sequence. The media and utter lack of scientific education is to blame for this. People are bad at complexity. They want a pat answer. THIS is the gene. Well, no. This is A gene. With 100 others, we might know where whatever comes from.

    I want *** marriage because medical professionals are too bigoted and stupid to obey power of attorney documents. It's a remarkably convenient thing to ignore a legal document because your lolGod doesn't agree with sexuality.

    And by the way...I'm a big ol' Hebrew. A Conservative Hebrew. We have this thing called the Torah, which is your "Old Testament". The Conservative Jewish movement recognizes homosexuality as an innate trait and formally blesses/recognizes *** marriage. So if your group uses the Torah in one way, and mine uses it in another, who is right? (The answer? The Hebrews. We were here first.)
    I did not know you were still around. It's been a long time!

    As to your point about intelligence, I'm going to have some trouble responding. First, i don't know if i even know what intelligence really is. We have IQ, which crudely measures one specific type of intelligence, but it's not very good at it. I don't think that the people that appear to be "smarter" are only that way because of genetics. A whole litany of things happen in a person's life that lead them to being one of the "smart" ones. I think there's a bit of an analogy there, imperfect as it is.

    I will grant you that there is likely a genetic makeup that makes one more likely to be smart (whatever that really means) and one that makes you more likely to be ***. I just think that we're so much more than our genetic code. i really think who we are is also largely determined by what happens to us. Genetics might provide a little framework, but fetishes and orientation, that seems like something that takes lots and lots of little pushes. If orientation was solely genetic, you could take a pill that would change your hormonal mix and change it. I don't think it's that simple.

    That does NOT mean it's okay to make gays second class citizens.

    I feel like we've had this convo before. I'm getting serious deja vu.

    Anyway, as to your point about complexity, you're totally right. most of who we are is very complex, and people don't like that answer. It'd be much easier to understand and deal with if we were all just slaves to a genetic code. i suppose more study into identical twins will have to be done to get a better feel of what our genes really do. Whoever turns out to be right, i think we can agree that you should be allowed to get some basic spousal rights.

    And welcome back.

  10. #40
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk *** marriage!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    I'm going to side with steve here and not understand what the point really is. The point to me seemed to be that she doesn't like marriage at all.

    And that her brother did her partner. Yea, that's not weird or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    The bible says a lot of things that are probably not true, and occasionally things that are downright wrong. Especially when it pertains to amounts of time. Oh and back on topic--it has a blurb or two about that too. (Well, not the marriage bit per se, but there was not a lot of old testament love for the gays). Romans says you're supposed to put them to death.



    Cloning essentially makes a "test tube" identical twin. They slurp DNA out of someone's cells, and put them in a zygote, and implant it. With some luck, and lots of tries, it grows to make a person with the same DNA. As far as we know, no one has done this artificially. Technically identical twins are natural clones. They have their own mind.

    Jmerv recently said his aunt had a telepathic link (sorta, only worked for dramatic events) with her twin. I'm a bit skeptical, of course, but I doubt he was lying, I think he really thinks it happened. I find that sort of thing intriguing. It's too bad the only way to experiment on it is to kill one of the two twins.



    I don't particularly care either, but the born with it thing is overblown. You're not *** at 6 months old. you don't even know what that means. Heck, I don't think kids understand that girls and boys are different until they're around a couple years. I get that often they don't feel like they chose it, but sexuality is a spectrum. It's just most of us are on one side.

    Psychology is a weird and complicated thing. People are mostly F'ed up in the head. I mean think about what had to happen to our collective psyche to decide we're going to take a wolf, inbreed the heck out of it and then dress it in a christmas sweater. The fact that we're not weirded out by this picture is proof that society has issues.
    dog-christmas-sweater-costumes.jpg





    winner-by-default-Men-Burgundy.png
    There are of course some inaccuracies in the bible, but I'm not agreeing that this is one of them.

    Well, cloning doesn't copy your personality and what is being talked about further down further confirms that I don't really see an issue with it in my limited understanding.

    And for the record, that weirds me out.

    And a win is a win in my book!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anyee View Post


    We haven't found the gene for intelligence. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Intelligence is ~70% heritable, meaning that in a population, 70% of the variance can be attributed to genetic factors. In other words, intelligence is extremely linked to our genes...but we don't have a specific intelligence gene. We have guesses and we have animal clues, but we have almost zero proof that the genetic trait is on chromosome (n), arm (x), locus (whatever).

    In reality, most complex traits such as intelligence, sexuality, mental illness, artistic talent, and so on are multi-loci. There are genes that toggle a risk for schizophrenia, but we don't know how many are required, which are necessary or sufficient, and in what combination. It is extremely likely that sexuality is the same way. I'm guessing there hasn't been much research because no one wants to fund it. This is probably due to the bias that people choose homosexuality, though why someone would choose to be so different that whole religions pass laws to kill you is beyond me.

    People think of genetics in such a simplistic way: the gene for hair color. The gene for obesity. The gene for height. The reality is that almost none of our normal functioning is tied to a single sequence. The media and utter lack of scientific education is to blame for this. People are bad at complexity. They want a pat answer. THIS is the gene. Well, no. This is A gene. With 100 others, we might know where whatever comes from.

    I want *** marriage because medical professionals are too bigoted and stupid to obey power of attorney documents. It's a remarkably convenient thing to ignore a legal document because your lolGod doesn't agree with sexuality.

    And by the way...I'm a big ol' Hebrew. A Conservative Hebrew. We have this thing called the Torah, which is your "Old Testament". The Conservative Jewish movement recognizes homosexuality as an innate trait and formally blesses/recognizes *** marriage. So if your group uses the Torah in one way, and mine uses it in another, who is right? (The answer? The Hebrews. We were here first.)
    Kinda hurts my head a bit as I'm not esspecially scientifically inclined. But I think you make a very good point and I can mostly agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I did not know you were still around. It's been a long time!

    As to your point about intelligence, I'm going to have some trouble responding. First, i don't know if i even know what intelligence really is. We have IQ, which crudely measures one specific type of intelligence, but it's not very good at it. I don't think that the people that appear to be "smarter" are only that way because of genetics. A whole litany of things happen in a person's life that lead them to being one of the "smart" ones. I think there's a bit of an analogy there, imperfect as it is.

    I will grant you that there is likely a genetic makeup that makes one more likely to be smart (whatever that really means) and one that makes you more likely to be ***. I just think that we're so much more than our genetic code. i really think who we are is also largely determined by what happens to us. Genetics might provide a little framework, but fetishes and orientation, that seems like something that takes lots and lots of little pushes. If orientation was solely genetic, you could take a pill that would change your hormonal mix and change it. I don't think it's that simple.

    That does NOT mean it's okay to make gays second class citizens.

    I feel like we've had this convo before. I'm getting serious deja vu.

    Anyway, as to your point about complexity, you're totally right. most of who we are is very complex, and people don't like that answer. It'd be much easier to understand and deal with if we were all just slaves to a genetic code. i suppose more study into identical twins will have to be done to get a better feel of what our genes really do. Whoever turns out to be right, i think we can agree that you should be allowed to get some basic spousal rights.

    And welcome back.
    I can also agree with this. Life experiences play a huge factor in determining many things like orientation, weight, mental conditions, etc etc.

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