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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    For the purposes of full disclosure, I include myself in the group I refer to above. I'm not happy to do so, but with so many evils to evaluate, it's hard (as in, impossible) to work out which is the lesser.
    Massachusetts has no death penalty. So I'll be interested in hearing how the citizenry feel. Already there are some trying to figure out a way around their own supposed morality.

    Not sure which evil you refer to - the evil of vengefulness, or the evil of hypocrisy over the panty-waisted anti-death penalty attitude. There's nothing inherently evil about the death penalty; evil enters because it is often mis-applied. Deliberately placing a bomb behind an eight-year-old is obviously deserving of it, if anything is.

  2. #12
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    ugh. That last link makes me sad. I'm glad they caught the guy, and surely he should get the book thrown at him, but all those people partying in the street because they caught him. It just doesn't sit well with me.

    Also, (merv may want to sit down for this), but I'm not sure he did all this because he (the older brother) was a true beleiver in the islamist movement, or if he was just a miserable ******* that latched onto that movement. I guess it doesn't matter. In the end if he had ties or not, he's still blowing stuff up. Still, calling him an islamist terrorist seems a little pre-mature. He might have just been a crazy person like the sandyhook guy or the OK bombing guy.

    But we'll see. maybe religion/politics did play a significant role and I'm wrong. No one really knows a lot yet.


    Anyway, as to what to do with him, he's a citizen. You try him like a citizen. If the people of MA don't like that they should change the laws to suit them better. The law is about trying to establish justice and fairness. We should not change the rules willy nilly to suit our tastes. All citizens are entitled to due process. That's a defining characteristic of the US. To weasel around that is to change who we are, and I don't like that.

  3. #13
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Steve is right. While part of me likes the idea of immediate justice, this isn't a situation that merits it.

  4. #14
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    I think this is why super heroes are so popular in a way. They're able to go above the law to an extent and get vengence, and people are ok with it. However, like a few others have stated, there is a process criminals must go through before being convicted and made guilty. Innocent until proven otherwise and all that. Killing him before determining his guilt, motive, etc. is just vengeance, not justice. The victims and their families won't get anything out of another dead body. Especially if it's prematurely so and they don't even know for sure if it was his doing or not. He would've just been a dead person of interest.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

  5. #15
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Also, (merv may want to sit down for this), but I'm not sure he did all this because he (the older brother) was a true beleiver in the islamist movement, or if he was just a miserable ******* that latched onto that movement. I guess it doesn't matter.
    Nope. It matters, and it matters quite a bit. When I get angsty I go buy a bottle of Jamesons and grumble about treasonous Leftists. You take a verbal crap on the Catholic Church and fap yourself raw about how much better you are than stupid Xians. Neither of us do more than think randomly about what a swell idea it would be to go plant improvised claymore mines at a public event, and in specificity neither of us would consider planting one of those mines behind an eight-year old. At least, I certainly wouldn't, and in your book I'm the same ethically as the bombers (insane religius zealot). I'm explicitly more capable of violence than you are, having been a professional in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    In the end if he had ties or not, he's still blowing stuff up. Still, calling him an islamist terrorist seems a little pre-mature. He might have just been a crazy person like the sandyhook guy or the OK bombing guy.
    It's not at all premature (the elder brother's interest was politics and Islam, as if they weren't the same thing) - he's as sane as you or I (the Sandy Hook punk notwithstanding). It takes a special kind of evil to consider blowing up children and innocents, yet Islamists do it as a matter of course. So do Leftists like Bill Ayers. That's what wrong with considering sociopathic behavior as being legitimate.

    I mock Alex Jones, even when he's right (which he can be, as Ash has asserted), and I don't know of that many TEA Party people who are Jones devotees OR Birchers. The elder brother was a devotee of Sheikh Feiz, who would be the closest comparison. Neither Jones nor Birch advocate pipe bombs or slaughter of the non-combatants; Feiz and the other Islamists explicitly do, as does the Ayers/Dohrn crew - Obama's original hatchery, which he assures us is quiescent like Al Quaeda even as he parties with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    To weasel around that is to change who we are, and I don't like that.
    Then you should get used to it, because the side you defend against my railing is that of the same crapweasels of whom is famously said, "some animals are more equal than others".
    Quote Originally Posted by tougeznut View Post
    I think this is why super heroes are so popular in a way. They're able to go above the law to an extent and get vengence, and people are ok with it.
    It granted Charles Bronson an undeserved acting career (though Bronson is a gentleman).



    It is visceral. It is often right, true, and legitimate. However, it is animal, and prone to error - therefore it must be resisted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Innocent until proven otherwise and all that. Killing him before determining his guilt, motive, etc. is just vengeance, not justice. The victims and their families won't get anything out of another dead body.
    The problem occurs when we cross over from justice into the false construct of mercy. Mercy is for humans, not for a bureaucratic justice system - because when mercy becomes enshrined. it grants murderers like Ayers/Dohrn legitimacy, and makes animals like Mumia objects of admiration.

    I don't doubt for a moment that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev will immediately have a number of marriage proposals and book deals. The cop who Mumia shot in the back of the head, as well as the ones killed by Ayers/Dohrn's gang are almost completely unknown (I couldn't even find a list or link, and there were at least four).

  6. #16
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Vengeance and justice are not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, they often coincide. That said, it's good to know that you're exacting revenge on the right person.

    Also, most super heroes are limited by their own sense of morality and often can't exact revenge on anybody. They just give the bad guy a wedgie and duct tape him to the top of a flagpole somewhere with a note that says "For the police." After all, if the villain dies, we wouldn't have a sequel.

  7. #17
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Vengeance and justice are not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, they often coincide. That said, it's good to know that you're exacting revenge on the right person.

    Also, most super heroes are limited by their own sense of morality and often can't exact revenge on anybody. They just give the bad guy a wedgie and duct tape him to the top of a flagpole somewhere with a note that says "For the police." After all, if the villain dies, we wouldn't have a sequel.
    Thank you Captain Obvious.


    P.S. Fed's (Specifically Eric Holder) can take over and seek the Death Penalty in Spite of MA not having it.

    On a lighter note for all those that said it here as well, You know who you are

    Glen Beck Gives Obama Till Monday to Admit Boston Bombing was Inside Job.

    If he truly has any proof he's being a massive dick by not showing it.
    Last edited by BobCox2; 21-04-2013 at 02:43.

  8. #18
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    That was a response to tougeznut, in case you couldn't tell.

    On the video, I laughed when Alex Jones called it a "false flag op" and an inside job. Beck is someone I'm a heck of a lot more willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Say what you will about him, he does his research and backs up all his claims with good evidence, unlike Jones who spins up conspiracy theories out of almost nothing most of the time. Haven't looked into this one yet though, so that's all I'll say on the matter for now.

  9. #19
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Sorry But I Could not resist.

    Yours what just the best straight line on the page for it.

    In other thoughts I have to agree with this guy.

    that shutting down the city was a mistake.

    "It's telling that shortly after authorities lifted the "shelter-in-place" order, they had a major break in their manhunt. Allowed to venture outside, a Watertown resident saw something and said something. For more than a decade after 9/11, law enforcement officials and our government have made this mantra something more than part of our culture.
    And, lo and behold, it works when you allow it to.

    While it certainly might have made sense to keep Watertown residents "safe" in their homes during the height of the week's post-MIT firefight, it made absolutely no sense to shut down the entire Boston metropolitan area, halt public transportation and cancel major sporting events because a seemingly malleable 19-year-old thug snuck outside a local/state police, FBI, ATF, Homeland Security -- you name the agency -- perimeter.
    Was this the plan authorities had in place when they rehearsed the unthinkable? Or did the sweeping decision come down on a relative whim when all hell broke loose in Watertown? If it did, that's understandable, but still not sensible"

  10. #20
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Marathon bombing - you read it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Nope. It matters, and it matters quite a bit. When I get angsty I go buy a bottle of Jamesons and grumble about treasonous Leftists. You take a verbal crap on the Catholic Church and fap yourself raw about how much better you are than stupid Xians. Neither of us do more than think randomly about what a swell idea it would be to go plant improvised claymore mines at a public event, and in specificity neither of us would consider planting one of those mines behind an eight-year old. At least, I certainly wouldn't, and in your book I'm the same ethically as the bombers (insane religius zealot). I'm explicitly more capable of violence than you are, having been a professional in the past.
    Okay, it matters if he had actual ties to some organization. But if they were on their own, then it's a bit different. Not that much is going to change. it's not like we're going to stop going after AQ if he doesn't have ties.

    And yes, you're clearly more prone to and capable of violence. And it's not lost on me that you would not blow up kids. Our philosophical differences, while fun for internet debates, are mostly esoteric in comparison between either us us and the mindset that thinks that it is okay.

    It's not at all premature (the elder brother's interest was politics and Islam, as if they weren't the same thing) - he's as sane as you or I (the Sandy Hook punk notwithstanding). It takes a special kind of evil to consider blowing up children and innocents, yet Islamists do it as a matter of course. So do Leftists like Bill Ayers. That's what wrong with considering sociopathic behavior as being legitimate.
    Well the narrative changes when we find out the why, but really, I don't think much else changes. It's a fine line between nut bar and "freedom" fighter. Perhaps a matter of perspective too. Either way though, he'll undoubtedly be found guilty (tons of video and still frame evidence, and they admitted it during the chase), and he'll take those reasons with him to jail. The only thing that really changes is the new narrative--and that's all spin anyway.

    At the end of the day, it's illegal to blow people up. This is a good law, because no one wants to get blown up. I think MA should reconsider the death penalty, because there's no situation where I would suddenly say, yeah, let's let this guy back into society. Now they've got to feed the kid for another 60-70 years.

    I mock Alex Jones, even when he's right (which he can be, as Ash has asserted), and I don't know of that many TEA Party people who are Jones devotees OR Birchers. The elder brother was a devotee of Sheikh Feiz, who would be the closest comparison. Neither Jones nor Birch advocate pipe bombs or slaughter of the non-combatants; Feiz and the other Islamists explicitly do, as does the Ayers/Dohrn crew - Obama's original hatchery, which he assures us is quiescent like Al Quaeda even as he parties with them.
    I missed that bit where it was assumed to be the tea party's fault. I heard that the allegations had been made, but didn't hear where or when or how often they were made. Was it widespread?

    Bear with me, my only news source for the last few weeks has been radio in the car--mostly the conservative channel because the progressive one is just out of range of where I've been driving, and it stops at 9pm and turns into annoying dance music.

    Then you should get used to it, because the side you defend against my railing is that of the same crapweasels of whom is famously said, "some animals are more equal than others".
    oh again with the sides. I'm on my own side. In fact, the "sides" is one of the biggest problems we have. That and the campaign financing issue.

    Anyway, Animal farm is on my list of things to read. I know, I've been saying that forever.

    The problem occurs when we cross over from justice into the false construct of mercy. Mercy is for humans, not for a bureaucratic justice system - because when mercy becomes enshrined. it grants murderers like Ayers/Dohrn legitimacy, and makes animals like Mumia objects of admiration.
    It's not about mercy, and it's not about him. It's about us following our own rules. If we strip him of citizenship just to change venues so he can be killed, isn't that a victory for him? Isn't that granting him more importance than he really should have?

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