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  1. #31
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    7% retention rate sounds very good tbh.
    Hell, it sounds much better than the game actually deserves in its current state:P

    Comparing retention rates between most games are meaningless though, as most games aren't meant to have any retention.
    Blizzard don't really make 5 hour games, they make games which are meant to be played for hundreds of hours (and of course thousands of hours for those of us who are clinically insane). You can only meaningfully compare it to other games which were build for replayability.

    Likewise, completion rates are meaningless for this type of games, since they were designed to last further than just campaign completion. For many of these - such as Civilization or Sports games - the whole concept of completing it makes no sense.

    It is no surprise that Civ5 got low "completion rate". For many people Civ-games end long before you actually win, because of how the game works - which could certainly be considered a deep flaw of the game design in all the Civ games so far. You can often see half-way through exactly how the rest of the game is going to play out, at which point people might start over, instead of going on. A bit like how people quit games in starcraft when they know they will lose.

    Btw, I'd guess that achievement statistics on Steam might be a little bit skewed toward "casual" in general, for one reason: Steam sales. Lots of people buying $5 games during those sales, playing them for 20 min, before jumping unto the next $5 offer. Which doesn't say a whole lot about the games themselves.

  2. #32
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Uhm, when considering that I played an average of perhaps 10 hours of D2 per week over 10 years, it sums up to 5200 hours and it might be even more, so it seems I meet your terms of being "clinically insane" . BTW, I played D3 for about 200 hours. I might resume play if Blizzard offers a way to play without the AH defining prices, e.g. by a "no AH" checkbox upon character creation, so there are separate realms for these characters.

    The term retention has many meanings in the online dictionary I'm using. Do you mean the kind of memory which it leaves after finishing to play it? In that case I would rate it as "worth playing, but too many flaws to play it for a long time".
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  3. #33
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Didn't mean it in a negative way at all!

    I don't know if I'm using retention the right way, but I (and others I assume) are basically meaning high replayability or longevity - not how you feel about it after you played it. Higher retention = people wanting to keep playing for longer time. Technically irregardless of the games quality, though one would hope there is at least some connection between the quality and the longevity

  4. #34
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    Didn't mean it in a negative way at all!

    I don't know if I'm using retention the right way, but I (and others I assume) are basically meaning high replayability or longevity - not how you feel about it after you played it. Higher retention = people wanting to keep playing for longer time. Technically irregardless of the games quality, though one would hope there is at least some connection between the quality and the longevity
    You are using it in the right way, and you are hitting on the crux of the issue with your disclaimer. If you are not already familiar with the topic, research skinner's box. The basic principle is a researcher studied behavior psychology, and determined that a button which, when pressed, offered a gradually decreasing chance of reward, was the most effective motivator to keep the rats pushing the button, long after such an action was gratifying in any way. D3 seems to be a very cleverly constructed skinners box, other than the AH. It has all the elements to keep people playing WELL after they are having any fun whatsoever, so in that respect it is a success. On the other hand, when people finally wake up from playing a skinners box and realize what they are doing, their sense of self disgust tends to translate to disgust at those who would manipulate them so, leading to the backlash at D3. The trick here is the AH- it skips around 90% of the time / reward cycle, and leaves people on a path where only the AH provides further fulfillment, which is not a great path at all. If it were not for people being able to see (and obtain) that which otherwise they would spend the next 100 hours obtaining, they would not realize how minor and unfulfilling those rewards truly are, and would thus keep at the skinners box for much longer.

    It's like when the invincible exploits arose for the Wizard / DH, and people actually saw the Act III / Act IV Inferno rewards they were striving towards, and realized they were little better than the rewards from Act I / Act II inferno, just with vastly pumped up guardians for said rewards, requiring unmanageable investments of time and or resources. Sorry, don't mean to be such a debby downer, but the state of the forums makes me think I'm talking to no one anyway, and makes me think everyone has already realized this long ago. Gotta give them props, though, they definitely took the lessons of Zynga et all to heart, this is the best constructed skinners box I've seen in a long time. I don't know if such things can be qualified as games, but if they can be, good for them for such a well constructed game, if they hadn't included the auction house. Greed gets to the best of us, though, so can't really blame them for it. If you still (or at any point in the last 100 hours of your play time) play for the sheer thrill of playing, feel free to correct me. I hope plenty of people from their reputed 1 million players per month will do so. I somehow doubt it.

    Edit: I'm really sorry for such negativity. It's not appropriate in such a location, where hopefully those whose dreams were fulfilled by D3 are discussing the game they love. It's just that, you know, I followed the game since D2 was introduced to me, it was the first game I bought with my own money, it's the sequel to the only game I've bought more than 2 copies of, etc etc. So I wanted to check in on it, as in some ways no matter what I will always care about the diablo franchise, even as I seek out new experiences and memories entirely, and even as I as a gamer grow up and learn what I personally find enjoyable about games, and seek those aspects out. So the reports that it has only gotten better since release, that the patches have made a meaningful impact, that Blizzard has corrected a large number of the issues that plagued release, prompted me to try a couple hours gameplay, and a revisit to the forums I loved to lurk upon. The fact of the matter is, though, that no one else is here. I'm visiting a graveyard to something that I once loved, and it's a terribly depressing experience. Also, the game is just as flawed and incomplete as it was upon release, and it's barely gotten better at all, if people think this is improvement, then they have low standards indeed. I can't help but feel down when I think about this game series, and I'm afraid it sometimes reflects in my writing. I'll make an active effort to prune it out, and make more positive posts. I'm sorry.
    Last edited by Sir Mister; 03-04-2013 at 03:07.

  5. #35
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    Didn't mean it in a negative way at all!
    No offense taken.

    I don't know if I'm using retention the right way, but I (and others I assume) are basically meaning high replayability or longevity - not how you feel about it after you played it.
    OK, in that case the game has a low retention rate for me. I didn't expect it to reach D2 in that respect, but I was disappointed that it was clearly less than I hoped. Whatever, I paid €50 or 60 and I played it for 200 hours, so I cannot say that I feel defrauded. Also, Blizzard seems to be willing to make further significant changes, so it's not over for me yet.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Ash View Post
    I just can't believe they never played Diablo 2 lol.
    I can lol.

  7. #37
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Ok big time D2 user it was my first major addiction aside from NES and Atari. I've now logged over 700 hours at D3 and I can say that it has been therapeutic at times. I admit I use the AH, but not with my own money, and not to do what everyone else is doing with crit damage stacking etc. My primary is a Monk and I've just now begun to start leveling the other classes with a barb and a DH at 60 and a mage halfway with a WD barely started. I still remember just how rough D2 was IN THE BEGINNING. Aside from the obvious improvement in some areas for D3, I see it Getting to the D2 state eventually where it's a cult classic that gets played for some time. It may be the xpac, it may be after the itemization changes. I like that they are being a bit more open about certain flaws that have plagued the game, and I really like the idea of the reintroduction of lower level legendaries at higher monster level rolls (with hopefully new interesting abilities, most low level legendaries have little in the area of customized stats/abilities if you look).

    My joy now is in attempting to find ways to play classes differently while still being effective. I think I've shown that with my monk (WotHF damage stacking on gear, minimal crit dmg etc.) and I plan on trying some of the same with other classes. The item hunt is disheartening when nothing drops for your particular need and nothing drops with any resellability. My monks up to P63 and does Mp8 decently so I think I can comment on legendary drop dispair (when they drop you're excited and then immediately remind yourself of the odds stacked against you).

    I'm hopeful of the information I see coming from the devs. I agree that the RMAH has robbed us of a decent economy without exponential inflation. Unless you get that billion gold item good luck, same goes for self farming to obtain for higher mp's.

    Really I just meant to say that in the long run I think Diablo III will get it right. I did some D2X before D3's release and to be quite honest I liked it a several years back when tagging along on bot runs wasn't what many did and Uber Diablo walking around in the first area of Act 5 was new and cool. The social aspect of the game I still think is foremost of issue. I think it does come before itemization fixes if you can get people to start enjoying playing with other people again without seeing so many negative effects of Pleveling efficiency. When D2X was fresh I was a bigger part of the Dii.net druid community with a group of my internet friends in our private Druidic Grove D_A channels we would play together almost exclusively and I miss that. I played 10x more than I've played now during the D2 1.07-1.09 era than I do now and that was all because of the social aspects, sure I had my brother who played too, but it was easier to communicate in game way back then and that is sad.

  8. #38
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    So why doesn't Blizzard just create a NO AH mode where players can just one time convert characters over to? In this "Non AH mode" gems of all higher quality can drop, drop rates adjusted to fit no AH mode. Players who convert to "Non AH Mode" cannot trade with characters from the "AH Mode".

    Then everyone who hates the AH, can play their own mode, those who like the AH, can play their own mode.

  9. #39
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Golbez2 View Post
    So why doesn't Blizzard just create a NO AH mode where players can just one time convert characters over to? In this "Non AH mode" gems of all higher quality can drop, drop rates adjusted to fit no AH mode. Players who convert to "Non AH Mode" cannot trade with characters from the "AH Mode".

    Then everyone who hates the AH, can play their own mode, those who like the AH, can play their own mode.
    It sounds nice yeah, but it would separate players even more, which generally isn't a good thing. You would have "Non-HC Non-AH", "NonHC AH", "HC non-AH", "HC AH", and then of course also 10 MP levels in each of these for further separation.

  10. #40
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    Re: Jay Wilson says AH was a mistake

    Plus, would a non-AH mode increase botters and their items, devaluing items in the non-AH economy and increasing 3rd party sites selling items? That was the reason Blizz did the AH, besides having a small cash stream.
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