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  1. #11
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    You know, considering this forum gets about 10 new posts a day, you might want to try to encourage discussion instead of trying to shut down what little there is with snark.
    QFT. Its sad to see this place like this, I know this wasnt the most popular forum ever but there was a very active community here, in the days of Diablo 2 when the Strategy Compedium was up, there was so many posts and discussions and theorycrafting about builds and items, it was great.

    Now its as you said, like 8-10 posts per day, sometimes even less, but this isnt the only place, almost all D3 fansites are dead, there isnt anything worthy to discuss about D3. The most popular topic is always about what is wrong with the game and solutions about it, it just tells you something about the state of the game...

  2. #12
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeros View Post
    I think the answer is that the team -- like the community -- is currently full of too many conflicting opinions on what makes a good ARPG. I'm willing to bet some serious bucks that the in-house headbutting between "old school" and "new school" is absolutely hamstringing Diablo's ability to move forward. Free specs vs. commitment, deep itemization vs. easy access, casual vs. hardcore, story vs. no story, "badass from level 1" vs. progression, gothic vs. painterly ... There are really two schools of thought at the base of all this, and if the last few years have been any indication, they mix like oil and water.
    .
    Wow... You hit in on the head with that post.


    Ever since Path of Exile came to open beta i've been hooked on it. And if you take a few minutes to glance over the POE forums you will see what you describe in the above quote taking place. Constantly.

    The new skool vs old skool. Its all over the place.


    Players crying about Free For All Loot. Players crying about lack of full respects. Players crying about how hard it is to trade and wanting an auction house. And when you tell them to shut up and go back to D3 they get angry about it. As if this' new skool' of gamers need to have it their way all the time. As if game devs owe them everything. Even if the game is free.


    I honestly HATE D3 on PC. But, for some reason im looking forward to playing it on console. Simply put, it just seems like a the better version. How can this even make sense?

  3. #13
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vooodu View Post
    Players crying about Free For All Loot. Players crying about lack of full respects. Players crying about how hard it is to trade and wanting an auction house. And when you tell them to shut up and go back to D3 they get angry about it. As if this' new skool' of gamers need to have it their way all the time. As if game devs owe them everything. Even if the game is free.
    So, telling people who want convenience features to shut up, makes them mad? What a bunch of babies! They should learn to accept that things are just better the way I prefer, instead.

  4. #14
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkmere View Post
    So, telling people who want convenience features to shut up, makes them mad? What a bunch of babies! They should learn to accept that things are just better the way I prefer, instead.

    And thank you for pointing out exactly what i pointed out...

  5. #15
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    I... honestly can't tell if you're being ironic or serious.

  6. #16
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeros View Post
    These people were hired by Blizzard, meaning that they are some of the best brains and talents out there. That's a payroll reserved for very, very extraordinary people held to very high standards.
    I strongly disagree with this premise. If they are some of the best talent, it certainly isn't being shown. They are more like marketing experts. All I see in Blizzard's art lately is complete reliance on successful and very banal formulas (i.e. cheese)--old, popular ideas made extremely flashy and superfluous to pretend it's something new.

    Take the latest Starcraft ad; it has that low horn sound that is all the rage in recent movie previews, hot chicks, and glowing eyes--gosh, haven't seen that before. True talent is original thought, not copy and paste. They are simply looking at what's popular and plugging it in. Anyone can do this. Anyone can recognize that Star Wars is popular, so we should/must put the emperor in d3. Sure, they've got explosions and neon lights down to perfection, but there are no (peskily risky) new ideas behind their glam cannon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiroptus View Post
    At that point, D3 seemed like a very solid game and its no wonder that it got everyone so pumped up. So what happened in those 4 years? I would speculate that the problem is that D3 had more roles fill rather than just being a good ARPG, it was bound to go to consoles so the game suffered alterations because of that, it was an RMAH experiment, it needed to catter to everyone, including the casual grandmothers and WoW-players. Rob Pardo's "Wow-strike teams" interfered in the development, it was even state that those strike teams didnt even want elective mode to be in the game, and were the reasons why advanced tooltips were off by default.

    There was just no way to combine that form of meddling with a proper and healthy game design direction, with that game was doomed, and through these 4 years it was hacked up to pieces and there is nothing left now, I mean.. hell even that 2011 september delay, that event was what made itemzation based around main-stat, such an important design decision was rushed in the last hour and no wonder, it turned out to be a disaster.

    Now, its not that I think that this team has suffered a big injustice, I think that coupled with the meddling also came with the team's innexperience on the ARPG field, many of the design flaws in D2 were things that accidently worked towards the game's longevity, but the D3 team analyzed those flaws in a burocratic manner and doing that they "fixed" many of those "flaws" but didnt make anything to make up for something that has been lost. Take character customization for example, there is NONE in D3, its just scary that games like Farcry 3 and Tombraider actually have choices for you to spend skill points on but D3 has NONE, we see catch phrases being tossed like "Illusion of choice" yada yada, probably from a senior game design perspective, D3's skill system is flawless but from a gamer and Diablo fan, its a disaster. Everything was done in a methodical manner, the "big picture" was never taken into consideration, "Illusion" is what games are, if we have a "Illusion of Choice" it means we at least have one, its better than no choice at all and thus making our journey meaningless when all characters are the same and because of that, I have no attachment to my characters, my WD isnt my WD, it is just a lv 60 WD with all skills unlocked for him.

    Its also hard to know if those things that JW and the other developers were spewing out are actually what they truly believe, some WoW-Strike Team member must have commanded them into changing the skill system in a way that no casual gamer had a chance to screw up their character or waste time doing hard choices and the "Illusion of choice" meme is what they had to come up to defend it since they cant say that their bosses made them do it.

    I am sure that the work enviroment in the D3 team was just unbearable, I do believe that every single one of the developers, programers and artists hated working in the D3 team, with that enviroment it was just impossible to have a vision if not one that the corporate suit's agenda had for D3, the result is this messy disgrace that D3 turned out to be.
    While some customers eventually stop rewarding such bad behavior with money, new people keep getting born who don't know any better. We're also seeing a bizarre arms race to gobble up the teens and adults growing suspicious of the constant regurgitation of cheese. They'll keep blowing through millions to enhance the presentation, leading to an overblown grotesqueness. D3 is the breaking point of that arms race where it all becomes too obvious. Higher quality flashes of colored lights and crisper, overproduced sounds--that's pretty much all they worked on for those years. The expansion will be an even better fog machine with lasers.

    I'm sure in enough years, we'll finally hear from those artists-turned-brainwashing-technicians. They probably looked on in horror, realizing that the neon green and pink goop swirling down the toilet created a .00001% increase in eye saccades which can be exploited for profit.

    Anyway, I disagree with the OP in that the opinions weren't about concern over the game mechanics, but rather what must be done to make the game more attention-seeking in the ever desperate world of marketing.

  7. #17
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    While some customers eventually stop rewarding such bad behavior with money, new people keep getting born who don't know any better. We're also seeing a bizarre arms race to gobble up the teens and adults growing suspicious of the constant regurgitation of cheese. They'll keep blowing through millions to enhance the presentation, leading to an overblown grotesqueness. D3 is the breaking point of that arms race where it all becomes too obvious. Higher quality flashes of colored lights and crisper, overproduced sounds--that's pretty much all they worked on for those years. The expansion will be an even better fog machine with lasers.

    I'm sure in enough years, we'll finally hear from those artists-turned-brainwashing-technicians. They probably looked on in horror, realizing that the neon green and pink goop swirling down the toilet created a .00001% increase in eye saccades which can be exploited for profit.
    I agree but I think that Diablo 3 was so glaring on its intention that it could be the reason why the game now feels like a momumental failure.

    And yes, I would argue that Diablo 3 is a huge failure, for the 12 million copies sold, which were all granted because of the franchise's name, Diablo 3 is now a wasteland, for all those copies sold and the type of game that Diablo proposes to be, having 400 public games on, even after enabling MP on Public, is just pathetic. I really wanted to see the population display but blizzard thought the numbers were too glaring to be shown to the public, at least this way there are people who believe the game is being played by millions on solo games, but seriously... it certainly isnt. It also destroyed the community, look at this site or any other fansite, never in D1-D2 or even on the Hiatus of D2 to D3 the community was so dead.

    We bought the hype, the franchise name and dragged our friends with it, the fault is on our side, Blizzard did make all the bells and wristles to make D3 the most Michael Bay-ish experience of cheesy dialogue, neon lights and explosions but they shouldnt even bother with that, the franchise name would do all the trick. But the reception wasnt good despite what any white knight wants to say about it.

    Now for me, the big question is: What was Blizzard trying to accomplish with Diablo 3? Its hard to me to think that Blizzard didnt see all of this comming, that it was indeed lack of talent, bad design choices and all that. A company of Blizzard's power cant commit such a thing, I just cant accept it, not because I think Blizzard is great but because on D3's case the faults are so glaring, any amateur could see the game and point out that this thing wont even last a year and thats a failure for a franchise focused on replayability. Did they want to sacrifice the Diablo franchise and just milk whatever was left of it? Those old theories that Blizzard doesnt need the Diablo franchise anymore now that they have WoW and a new MMO on the way, those theories that everyone like to point as tinfoil material dont seem to farfetched anymore. The way things turned out, Its just difficult to see what was their intent with D3, it certainly wasnt to create a worthy and longlasting sequel to D2, they purposedly gutted the game on months before the release.

  8. #18
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiroptus View Post
    Diablo 3 is now a wasteland, for all those copies sold and the type of game that Diablo proposes to be, having 400 public games on, even after enabling MP on Public, is just pathetic.

    The way things turned out, Its just difficult to see what was their intent with D3, it certainly wasnt to create a worthy and longlasting sequel to D2, they purposedly gutted the game on months before the release.

    I think the biggest problem with MP is there is just to much. Why are 10 lvls of difficulty needed?


    They should have kept the original difficulty from when the game was released..


    I think D3 had a huge goal of sucking in as MUCH players as possible. They made inferno next to impossible, made drops 99% useless which in turn made the AH the main goal of the game. And the more AH was used the more money they make.

    I also think thats why skill trees where removed. Because they didn't want players constantly re- rolling. They wanted ITEMS to be the main focus So, in turn the AH would become the main focus.


    I can't help but think that was their main goal.


    Its funny that the PS3 version will have Offline mode, NO auction house and less CRAP items dropping.. Really?


    That just pretty much proves my above point.





    Like i said im looking forward to playing this on console with friends. I can't help but think this game makes a great console style arcade game. Its not really an ARPG at all. Hell, its not even a true sequel to D2..

  9. #19
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    I cant help but think that right now there is a tension between the development team and the upper level executives within the company. There must of been some fallout from the Jay Wilson twitter bomb, the open letter to the community by the blizzard CEO and other such things. For a CEO to have to write a letter like that in the first place must be very embarrassing for a company like Blizzard, a juggernaut in the gaming world. There just had to be some anger there because of this. I am certain it affected the team if there was.

    Thats why when i read what the devs are saying is just sounds like they are looking over their shoulder and really really being careful in what they say. Every decision is problably being gone over by the higher ups and only goes into effect if cleared. Perhaps freedom was curtailed as a result.

  10. #20
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    Re: Is Diablo's team just full of too many opinions?

    I think JW is extremely pissed off at them, yeah he received his paycheck but it came with the price of having his reputation run to the ground when there is a good chance that it wasnt even his fault but rather Rob Pardo's WoW Strike teams who did a good job on disrupting the game development.

    JW doesnt seem like a very good guy, he seems arrogant and is just terrible to communicate with the public, but I think he is a good designer, the way how D3 was gutted seemed to me that there was a driving force within the execs doing that, and it was out of his reach to make anything against it, he just had to go with the flow and defend the design choices of Pardo's team with his own words, no wonder his words were so out of place. At least that my theory on the matter...

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