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  1. #21
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    I'm still willing to give China a bit time to turn into something better. Us Europeans (including those which came into the US 100+ years ago) needed more than a few decades to evolve into what we are now. Anyway, the patience with that shouldn't be unlimited and a bit pressure, if possible, would certainly help at it. I have more hope about them than about the middle East.
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  2. #22
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    I'm still willing to give China a bit time to turn into something better. Us Europeans (including those which came into the US 100+ years ago) needed more than a few decades to evolve into what we are now. Anyway, the patience with that shouldn't be unlimited and a bit pressure, if possible, would certainly help at it. I have more hope about them than about the middle East.
    Sadly, I think you're too optimistic. I also think that America's Socialist party, as well as the outright Maoists, would never be willing to bring the required pressure despite the disproportionate risk (I don't recall if I've already cited it - something like 5% of our imports vs. 80% of their exports, so they have a lot more to lose).

    Whatever they call the Chinese Politburo isn't about to let go and be actual free-market; in fact there's discussion about cracking down and increasing restrictions. That would either result in civil war or retrenchment back to Mao-like rule, both of which are likely to cause significant deaths. If America was run like China, the way Obama & others think would be super cool, you would have most of the Southern and Western essentially under martial law, where it would be a crime to move off your farm to try to get a job in the bigger city. The reason Chinese goods are cheaper isn't only because of currency manipulation; they force large segments of their population to work in horrifically unsafe and contaminated environments for artificially sub-par wages.

    In some ways I think the Middle East <MIGHT> have a chance. The Islamism problems there are all due to the Wahabi sect running the show, and the reason it runs the show is Saudi oil dollars. Once the Saudis no longer control the world's oil supply, their religious primacy vanishes or at least is deeply undermined. That's why the Keystone Pipeline is such a critical issue...


  3. #23
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    I'm not terribly interested in North Korea speculation, since I predicted war about two years back and they simply sunk a South Korean Navy ship and killed a few civilians.

    As long as the West is stumbling over itself to grovel to these freaks, it's hard to imagine an actual "hot" war. The NorKs simply don't have the ability to conduct an offense; their only "strength" lies in being able to destroy Seoul and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians with old artillery.

    However, I think the timing is more than a little interesting. I actually heard the (same laughably stupid) female DJ on during my morning commute asking why China isn't helping stop the NorK aggression.



    Stop it? They WANT it.

  4. #24
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    I'm not terribly interested in North Korea speculation, since I predicted war about two years back and they simply sunk a South Korean Navy ship and killed a few civilians.

    As long as the West is stumbling over itself to grovel to these freaks, it's hard to imagine an actual "hot" war. The NorKs simply don't have the ability to conduct an offense; their only "strength" lies in being able to destroy Seoul and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians with old artillery.

    However, I think the timing is more than a little interesting. I actually heard the (same laughably stupid) female DJ on during my morning commute asking why China isn't helping stop the NorK aggression.



    Stop it? They WANT it.

    I don't think the Chinese want the north koreans to start a war. I think they like having a nice buffer there between our allies and them, so they're invested in having NK exist. A war risks that, and they don't want a war. They also don't want NK to fail though, so they're going to make sure there's enough food in there so they don't collapse. It's better for them when that aid comes from someone else, but push comes to shove, they'll broker a peace, and chip in the supplies--just enough to keep NK around.


    What advantage would there be in having things come to a hot war with the US and the south? Seems like we'd blow a bunch of stuff up, refugees would spill in china (bad for them), and they might lose their buffer state (bad for them). The only good that might come from it would be some stuff getting blown up in SK, which might give them a short term opportunity to steal some business. peanuts compared to the potential trouble. That bit at the end of that article about the chinese possibly installing a puppet would make sense, but only after there was a serious conflict.

  5. #25
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Yeah, I don't think China really wants a war either. I'm pretty sure they are in the position of the big brother reluctantly looking out for his little brother. You know the drill. Little brother constantly gets himself into trouble and is always running his mouth, but you look out for him because he's your brother, and that's just what brother's do for each other.

    China might actually be at that point where they're sick of it and ready to let NK fend for itself, but are afraid that little Kimmie might throw a tantrum. Given that he's got nukes to play with now, that could end very badly for everyone. So they just let him yell and scream and throw rocks at the neighbors every now and then hoping that that will satisfy him.

  6. #26
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Yeah, I don't think China really wants a war either. I'm pretty sure they are in the position of the big brother reluctantly looking out for his little brother. You know the drill. Little brother constantly gets himself into trouble and is always running his mouth, but you look out for him because he's your brother, and that's just what brother's do for each other.

    China might actually be at that point where they're sick of it and ready to let NK fend for itself, but are afraid that little Kimmie might throw a tantrum. Given that he's got nukes to play with now, that could end very badly for everyone. So they just let him yell and scream and throw rocks at the neighbors every now and then hoping that that will satisfy him.

    Osama Bin Laden would have used the nukes if he had them.
    China I think not but...

    NK I do not trust.

    Unless they gave him a delivery system, they are the target he can reach.
    FYI - Asian hate other Asian more than US.


    China Japan etc should watch out.


    WWIII could be an almost all Asian nation affair

    In spite of all the Threats.
    Last edited by BobCox2; 05-04-2013 at 05:25.

  7. #27
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Bin Laden doesn't lead a country. A country has a territory to defend. A terrorist, partizan or freedom fighter leaves his hideout, does some kind of damage and disappears again. A country cannot hide or disappear, however

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Yeah, I don't think China really wants a war either. I'm pretty sure they are in the position of the big brother reluctantly looking out for his little brother. You know the drill. Little brother constantly gets himself into trouble and is always running his mouth, but you look out for him because he's your brother, and that's just what brother's do for each other.
    Actually, there are no friendships among nations, just shared interests, but if your point was that you help a brother even if you don't like him, you are right.

    China might actually be at that point where they're sick of it and ready to let NK fend for itself, but are afraid that little Kimmie might throw a tantrum. Given that he's got nukes to play with now, that could end very badly for everyone. So they just let him yell and scream and throw rocks at the neighbors every now and then hoping that that will satisfy him.
    China certainly don't want NK to do what they want. They are a useful tool when dealing with the US in the area. NK is their mad dog which is let off the chain from time to time, to scare and irritate a few neighbours, but I think now it's time for China to give it a few firm words, a slap with the newspaper and put on the leash again.

    If that sounds disrespectful to NK, then which expression of respect wouldn't sound like a lip service or a hollow phrase? I think we cannot show them any respect without humiliating ourselves. If they want recognition, they will have to give us a worthy reason. Currently they try it with "Respect and we will stop going mad!", like a old child which throws itself to the ground because it wants us to buy sweets for it (well ok, while waving around a knife), but sorry, no, I'm not buying sweets for naughty children.
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  8. #28
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Just for information, but why exactly is NK "mad" at other countries?

    Why would they nuke their neighbours, and what are they looking for in the US?

    Here in Belgium we only hear little bits of news from it all, and I fail to understand why peeps are fightning pretty much all over the world.
    (the only thing that made any sense sofar is the Israel thingy between the **** and Muslims)

    But which countries are "mad" at eachother in this latest dispute, and for what original reasons?

  9. #29
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    For clarification, when I mentioned the bimbo's belief that China should intervene and said, "Stop it? They WANT it.", I didn't mean a full-blown hot war. I meant that China wants NK to be on the precipice at all times, because it helps cover their own efforts. This is in reference to that book I mentioned earlier which, though perhaps not their official doctrine, certainly reveals how their military and political hierarchy views the situation. Unrestricted Warfare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    Just for information, but why exactly is NK "mad" at other countries?
    That's two questions, though you wouldn't know it. The reason they CLAIM to be mad is that they are the victims of incessant American and South Korean aggression. This aggression takes the form of nearly continuous food aid and propping up of their own power structure, as well as a border reinforced with a single heavy American Army division to prevent them from invading the South as they have regularly done.

    The REAL reason they're mad is that they believed the same commie claptrap as was sold during the 1950's, and now they're stuck in it. Going beyond even "standard" socialism, they have a freakish pseudo-Stalinist doctrine called juche which claims complete Commie self-reliance. This even while their citizens eat dirt pies and grass, they steal and cannibalize the train cars which ship in the international food aid from China, they have almost no street or home lighting, and their leadership have access to outside information and realize that they're an international laughingstock. Makes for a pretty massive inferiority complex, far beyond that of Islamists.

    EDIT - oh, yeah, Fun Fact - 50 years of Socialism has resulted in the North Koreans being an average of 3" shorter than South Koreans. The South Koreans are accused of rubbing their noses in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    Why would they nuke their neighbours, and what are they looking for in the US?
    They won't nuke their neighbors in a first strike. Their only true military capability is that of "scorched earth"; their armed forces' strength is in hundreds of thousands of WW2-era artillery aimed at the capitol of South Korea, which is within range. So they can obliterate the capitol of one of the civilized first-world nations, and a nuke would allow them the guise of being able to counter a counter-attack from other nations.

    In reality, their nukes aren't even at the "Fat Man" or "Little Boy" development stages; there's no way they can put them on the end of a Russian SS-5 ICBM (which is essentially what their 'Taepodong' is a crap copy of). However, they could load one in a lead-lined shipping container and strike anywhere in the world with a terror-type attack.

    IMO what they may have in long-range plans are getting their nukes small enough to get into orbit, and not worry about the difficult targeting and terminal phase. In their cooperation with Iran, I'm sure they've discussed the EMP potential of an orbital nuke - they pop off one of these on the American seaboard, or even better on each seaboard, and America is reduced to their technological level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnmaster View Post
    But which countries are "mad" at eachother in this latest dispute, and for what original reasons?
    The Korean War in a nutshell? ORIGINALLY the Commie-owned North invaded the South as is typical of Socialism - grounds being 'Yes we can!' rather than any legitimate cause. America fumbled initially in supporting the South, and the U.N. did their typical useless, pointless act, but eventually America was able to help South Korea beat back the invasion with the backstop of a couple of the nations propping up the U.N. effort (Aussies & Kiwis, as I recall).

    General MacArthur, an ardent anti-Commie and probably America's best general officer (and world-class belligerent arse, as far as I've ever really learned) was in command of the Japanese occupation. He obviously wanted to destroy the Commies and curb the COMINTERN aggression, so he counter-invaded, whereupon Mao sent in the Red Army. MacArthur wanted to nuke them and recognize that China had essentially gone to war against us. President Truman (Democrat) was afraid of (or according to some froth-mouth types even aligned with) Commies, very afraid of escalation, and was particularly angry that MacArthur was a (Republican) threat to his Presidency, so he fired MacArthur. The back & forth conflict, which killed hundreds of thousands on both sides and ruined many more lives, settled into the stalemate we have today: the Socialist half of the peninsula being hell on earth and the Capitalist half of the peninsula being one of the modern Western nations.

  10. #30
    IncGamers Member Dawnmaster's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Just one word: WOW.

    I've never had anyone explain any War like this to me, I have a much better grasp at the situation now.
    Plus a lot of extra details I wasn't even aware off.

    I'm very curious to see how this will escalate, or diminish into nothingness.

    Just to be sure, there have only been 2 nukes actually used in all wars combined? Both by America on Japan during WWII, right?
    So it would be a unicum if another country besides the US used real nukes in a war?

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