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  1. #181
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    We've been dealing with an uncertain tax situation for the entire Obama admin, and the economy has definitely suffered for it. Three more months aren't going to make much of a difference.

    My prediction for the next big fight this January is it's just going to be a repeat. The democrats will refuse to negotiate because they think the republicans will cave, and they're right. The republicans will once again vote themselves into irrelevancy and give the democrats anything they want. The media meanwhile will continue to do the bidding of the democrats and vilify any who even think of standing against them. There will be no budget because having one is not in the democrat party's best interest. We will simply raise the debt ceiling again, increase spending again, probably raise taxes again, and push the now imaginary deadline back another few months or even until just after the elections are over. Hopefully our credit rating will drop once more because of it, but I don't know that it will. (I only say that because we absolutely deserve it and it should be quite clear to every other nation out there that our current leaders have no real intention whatsoever of paying off our debts.) In short, we'll just keep adding more explosives to the disaster waiting at the end of this road.

    The only real question is if the republicans get to feeling uppity and once again try to make a big show of it before getting on their knees and patting themselves on the back for doing it.

  2. #182
    IncGamers Member Nazdakka's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    If "republic" truly only means "not a monarchy", how many different systems of government are there? Two? Monarchy and not monarchy? That makes no sense.
    One word descriptions can't describe every feature of a system of government. The fact that the US is a republic implies that the head of state is just another citizen who happens to get appointed to a particularly important job, rather than getting it through inheritance or the notional will of a deity or whatever.

    That doesn't tell you whether the government is democratic or not, that is to say, whether or not the government is elected in a free and fair manner. The R in 'USSR' was 'Republics', after all, while the UK is not a republic but is democratic.

  3. #183
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    You keep stopping just short of the finish line. You know that a republic means that we have public representatives rather than kings, which is good that you know that but it's also irrelevant. As I said, we settled that issue way back in 1776. You need to ask yourself what the difference is between a straight up democracy and a republic, because they are in fact two different things.

  4. #184
    IncGamers Member Nazdakka's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    You keep stopping just short of the finish line. You know that a republic means that we have public representatives rather than kings, which is good that you know that but it's also irrelevant. As I said, we settled that issue way back in 1776. You need to ask yourself what the difference is between a straight up democracy and a republic, because they are in fact two different things.
    Yeah, this is going round in circles. Your position is that saying that a country is a republic implies things about a government involving separation of powers and whatnot, and saying that it is a democracy implies something more like Swiss-style direct democracy, and that the two are distinct and mutually exclusive. My position is that the words mean what the dictionaries say they mean.

    I think we're done here.

  5. #185
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    I didn't say mutually exclusive. I did say there are distinct differences and that it's important to know those differences.

  6. #186
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    I didn't say mutually exclusive. I did say there are distinct differences and that it's important to know those differences.
    Thats what she said!

  7. #187
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Er, boys? War with China? Thread topic?

    Only 8-Bob had the decency to refer back to it... but of course
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    Sounds like the standard reply to Terrorist demands to me.
    Shudder. So much for MY casting as the slavering hate-monger on the OTF!

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    Or is Obamacare just too evil or wrong to fund? Kill it with fire?
    Obamacare was designed to fail. If you can't grasp that then you don't deserve to be recognized as intelligent enough to opine on the subject. I won't bother with citations that you'll spit at me for providing, but Harry Reid admitted as much fairly recently - it was designed to cause Socialized Medicine, AKA "Single Payer", because America would have recognized the Red Menace otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    Point - in case you missed it - is that simply because you disagree with a course of action does not mean the course of action is evil and wrong. The philosophical objections you have are not absolute values, the fiscal objections you have are not financial "eternal truths", etc.
    So why do you, Bob, and the gang view the concept of limiting Gov't as a horrific, terrurrrist EBIL? Even accepting that the certain economic principles y'all hate so aren't "eternal truths", they are proven under all circumstances to NOT lead to death, suffering, and totalitarianism. So much for the vaunted Progressive love of human rights...
    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    Seriously? Is that how democracy works? If a portion of Congress disagrees with an issue that has already been voted on and passed, they get to kill it with fire?
    Revisited, yes. Otherwise there's no way that stupid legislation like Prohibition would have been overturned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Technomancer View Post
    So I suppose if the Republicans decided they were going to shut down the government and not pay our debts until the Civil Rights Act was repealed, the Democrats would need to 'negotiate' and agree to repeal at least part of it to look reasonable then?
    How else could the Socialists have gained control of the Democrat Party? Someone has a doughnut, you demand it all, they refuse, you scream bloody feckin' murder and get the police involved, they finally give you a bite in the stupid hope of shutting your pie hole.

    Wash, rinse, repeat. I've gone over this before; apparently you're incapable of learning.
    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    Yes, I know. So why didn't they have a budget in the last few years?
    Because the {two?} that the Democrats put forward previously were such obviously fabulist that they refused to approve them once they came to the floor lest they stain their record permanently. The one the Senate finally approved is so laughable that only crack addicts (i.e. Democrats) would agree to it - something along the lines of, "okay, you'll give your future, your soul, and all you have currently in exchange for a quick fix". Best do your research lest you look like me opining on contemporary German politics. {/hint}

  8. #188
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazdakka View Post
    One word descriptions can't describe every feature of a system of government. The fact that the US is a republic implies that the head of state is just another citizen who happens to get appointed to a particularly important job, rather than getting it through inheritance or the notional will of a deity or whatever.
    Actually, the use of "Republic" vis-a-vis the United States is inherent in the title. There's a money quote somewhere about something like the American Civil War being the point at which it changed from being a plural to a singular usage. The U.S. **ARE** supposed to be a borderline confederacy, but have changed steadily over the years to a monolithic State. The problem with this, as most System Engineers could probably identify, is that monolithic systems are inherently weaker - this is particularly true with political systems.

    The U.S. Founders as a whole were far more enlightened about this issue than the forum membership, possibly including myself**, as they recognized that monolithic systems were not only prone to crushing the human spirit but to error, vice, and pretty much every other evil mankind can muster.

    **I have yet to read The Federalist Papers entirely.

  9. #189
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Er, boys? War with China? Thread topic?
    We're at war with China again? This time I have PPE so I am prepared.

    Only 8-Bob had the decency to refer back to it... but of course
    Shudder. So much for MY casting as the slavering hate-monger on the OTF!
    Wha'? But you are the cute bunny boy of the OTF! Can't hate the bunny!

    Obamacare was designed to fail.
    Right. Like GM was designed to fail as a (monolithic) car giant? Or are you saying it is intended as an interim step on the way to ... uh ... what?

    If you can't grasp that then you don't deserve to be recognized as intelligent enough to opine on the subject.
    OK. I won't opine.

    I won't bother with citations that you'll spit at me for providing, but Harry Reid admitted as much fairly recently - it was designed to
    cause Socialized Medicine, AKA "Single Payer", because America would have recognized the Red Menace otherwise.
    So Obamacare isn't "socialised medicine". Fine. Is it some business enterprise launched by Congress, Inc to challenge the major players in the healthcare industry?

    So why do you, Bob, and the gang view the concept of limiting Gov't as a horrific, terrurrrist EBIL?
    Whoa, tiger. The concept of limiting government is a very desirable thing indeed. Where the lines are drawn is the issue, for me at least.

    Even accepting that the certain economic principles y'all hate so aren't "eternal truths", they are proven under all circumstances to NOT lead to death, suffering, and totalitarianism. So much for the vaunted Progressive love of human rights...
    Uh, huh. Huh?

    Revisited, yes. Otherwise there's no way that stupid legislation like Prohibition would have been overturned.

    [...]
    That is, sorry to be blunt, a kind of dismal comparison [insert ad hominem].
    A more accurate one would be that when the legislation over-turning Prohibition was passed through both Houses, the reps then decided to withhold the funding necessary to enact the repeal at a later date. Do you see now?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Actually, the use of "Republic" vis-a-vis the United States is inherent in the title. There's a money quote somewhere about something like the American Civil War being the point at which it changed from being a plural to a singular usage. The U.S. **ARE** supposed to be a borderline confederacy, but have changed steadily over the years to a monolithic State. The problem with this, as most System Engineers could probably identify, is that monolithic systems are inherently weaker - this is particularly true with political systems.
    All Western nations are turning to the monolith model for government. It's not what you want, it's not what I want, either.

    The fact is, this is where things are headed. The voters can vote against this movement or they can vote for it. The problem comes when they actually have no real choice - which is probably where we are now.
    My argument is that no minority within government itself should be allowed to derail the will of the (majority of the) people

    The U.S. Founders as a whole were far more enlightened about this issue than the forum membership, possibly including myself**, as they recognized that monolithic systems were not only prone to crushing the human spirit but to error, vice, and pretty much every other evil mankind can muster.
    The US Founders were newbs - they'd get slaughtered in the polls today. Still, if you wish to be entirely governed (pun unintended) by knowledge, wisdom, methodologies and instincts dating back more than two hundred years, just hand in your computer on your way back to the 18th Century.

    **I have yet to read The Federalist Papers entirely.
    Merv, don't trust them new-fangled printing machines, they're the Debil's work!

  10. #190
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: This is it, boys, this is WAR! I'm scared. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Because the {two?} that the Democrats put forward previously were such obviously fabulist that they refused to approve them once they came to the floor lest they stain their record permanently. The one the Senate finally approved is so laughable that only crack addicts (i.e. Democrats) would agree to it - something along the lines of, "okay, you'll give your future, your soul, and all you have currently in exchange for a quick fix". Best do your research lest you look like me opining on contemporary German politics. {/hint}
    I would never say that the US did their financial matters well in the last few years. My question wasn't meant to say anything about the quality of the budget, but give a hint about its legality. You know, Bismarck said that if the people knew how laws and sausages are made, they couldn't sleep anymore. That hasn't changed since then and I think it can be applied to a lot of other decisions of a parliament or government. I asked to point out the difference between the legal definition of a budget and how somebody would call it personally if the name had to say something about its quality or creators.
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