Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh what??

[stillman]

For some future where there are far fewer lazy, greedy, manipulative and malevolent people - and equally importantly - fewer "sheep" amongst the population, SMFL may well come into being. I don't think that future likely, or unlikely -insufficient data to make a prediction based upon anything.

On the up side, we have growing research on how to spot the manipulative and even prevent children from becoming so as adults. Many sheep are waking up. However, the brainwashing, marketing and propaganda techniques have been perfected by masters in those fields. Thus, I agree that future societies are unforeseeable. I'm hopeful, as the 90's was the "decade of the brain" which was only recent. Neuroscience is in its infancy and has more decades yet to (hopefully) lead us out of darkness.

Sure, civilisation (and people) are climbing up towards the light, a good chunk of it anyway, but history is full of examples of societies that hit the heights and then toppled over.

At least there are many civilized nations, so when the US--er, one of them goes kerplop, others can carry on with progress.

The solution to the problem is to find the solution to the problem, and then solve it. Problem solved! You know what? I'm going to take a wild guess at something - some of those solutions will have their own problems! OMG!

Yes, and I don't see the issue here. This is how things get done.

Hint: the solutions require money to facilitate them, where does the money come from, how is it obtained, who pays for it, who doesn't?

You have three of the same question there, but I still don't see the issue. People who want the problem solved will have meetings and such to pool money, do up contracts, hire experts, and solve problems. The problem gets fixed on the properties of the people who signed up and paid.

You could go on to argue that this would make a sickly patchwork of a society where some people have street lamps and plumbing while others don't. Imo, those who don't want to pay for plumbing and expect to leech it off all their neighbors aren't great people and don't deserve the free plumbing. Screw them. Yeah, I'm kind of cold. Maybe the group of people who like plumbing are so big (95% wow, such agreement!) that the city would pool a ton of money and have an infrastructure and sewer system like we see today. And if people stop paying after that? Idk, the folks running the water plant turn off water to individual houses? Idk, I'm not a city planner. But I do know that no one has to threaten me into enjoying a kitchen sink and toilet. Those are just plain awesome.

Currently, the solution is taxes. Because some folks don't believe in paying for <insert things people don't agree with>. A Federal government is the logical progression of your proposition above regarding "common interest".

How about if people don't want to work and pay for food and such, they go hungry? Man, I'm cold today.

The idea of paying for things you don't want is anathema, I know, but for a society to function, it requires some cohesion ...
You don't know any diabetics, why should you contribute to the cost of insulin?

Because they should, lol. Why aren't there any heroes showing up to pay my rent? I need that rent money to live.

If the town down the road gets wiped out in a mud-slide, how are they going to help themselves if the damage to property/crops/population level is beyond their ability to manage? Are you going to pay for it? Is your neighbour? Everyone else? What about that new tractor you need? You had the money saved up, it'll have to wait now. Or maybe it won't have to wait, the money is yours after all.

You mean they didn't act responsibly and have emergency funding? There aren't volunteers throwing themselves at these disasters already? It seems you want a bullet proof motherboard of perfection. I haven't got one.

Really? In this discussion, you're going to try to score by suggesting I actually use screenplays to guide me? Whooa.

I think in real life, you design dungeons and poor monster AI.

OK, let's take it slowly then!
This year, I'm going to deduct a chunk of my taxes and pay for my own Fire Department services! I'm sure I can get all my neighbours on board with this.
Now, how much is a Fire Truck? And who in my street will offer to be the fire guy?

Of course, you whip up a scheme that would fail. When I'm reluctantly putting up ads for raisins, you can bet I'll use the lowest grade faultiest glue imaginable. By the end of this, you will loathe raisins too. What I meant was having people gradually see that politicians are just professional liars and parasites until people start demanding something else. People will probably want to keep the soldiers and other groups they see as useful.

I'll think of a solution that works and it will work! Who'd a-thought problem solving would be so easy?

Or, it won't work, leading to a better idea?

I suspect it'll take longer but then, you already spotted that I am Glass-Half-Empty Guy.

The exponential rate of technology and knowledge gain might quicken the pace.

So the solution to an inefficient security force is to hire efficient security people? That was easy.

Yes. When people enter a contest (especially one with a cash prize), they kind of want to win or else they wasted calories.

Yes, contracts will save the day. The company offering the security service will offer you a terrific service - but wait, this is the third time this year you have been broken into! Gonna have to raise your premiums, buddy. Can't pay? Well, it's costing me money to cover your property, gonna have to let you go. Good Luck.

Hmmm...sounds like it's time to find another solution out of the 50+ available to you now that you don't need permits, licenses, certification, a wealthy family, and a lawyer to make these big decisions in your life.

Of course, you're breaking the rules of the SMFL premise: people are really cool, so crime is down, not up. You're thinking of Mad Max again.

Protections? Hell, I'm buying me a new motorbike! I guess I would buy the best protection I could afford, and hope that "the best" is good enough.

SMFLis just full of solutions, isn't it?

Isn't this what people do? They're doing it now.

You haven't exactly answered my point - I said that if you wanted to get rid of the inefficient police force, you'd have to find replacements. You said that you don't need replacements because trained cops tend to stay in the business. Clarify?

I thought I explained this. Customers stop paying if they think they're getting gypped and they seek the competition. People in any field have incentive to keep their customers happy. Why would you train to be a security guard, then do such a miserable job that no one wants your services?

Now, how to ensure that your law-abiding groups are always bigger than any aggressor from outside the group ...

Weapons have pretty big AoE these days. This ain't my field, but is the risk worth it to the aggressors if their own city gets nuked in response to their invasion?

In SMFL, people will be kind and look after all the members of their society

Funny, many people are into this already. As for "all the members", no, sorry, no society can be perfect.

You're right though, the presence of kind volunteers in society proves that there are no evil-minded folk.

I never implied that. But most people are unaware of how many volunteers there are. The reason I quit after 9 years was that we're not allowed to do much of anything. You need eight years of university to give someone a glass of water.

In the New World Order, I am going to make a fortune being the guy that sells excellent portfolios and rave reviews to tattoo shops, to help grow their business!

I foresee a disaster in your career as a crime lord. People get multiple tattoos, and they sure won't go back to the guy who botched the first one. They'll also tell all their friends how bad the artist is. I guess you'll have to move on to selling tattoo scan machines that lie on the results in favor of the artist. But then, people would just go online to see the leading and trusted company on tattoo accuracy scanners and see their list of which artists bought their machine. I hope you're a good hacker, reverse engineer of those machines, etc, etc. Why, you'd be so gifted and unique, there'd be only one of you.

And NWO? Isn't that the complete opposite of what we're talking about?

Sorry, Still, but that's complete bullcrap. SOCIETY has advanced remarkably, which is why these distortions have become chronic and potentially terminal. People and their nature haven't advanced at all, and in all probability have devolved substantially.
You DO recognize that the growing percentage may be greater than single digits, but it's nowhere near the norm. Those numbers are substantially less than in the Founders' era, and they weren't in the majority either.

It's early yet!

People are quite divided on the human nature debate. While we are not the exaggerated "new species" Krischan mentioned, we have nutritional supremacy to the point where people are taller, smarter, maturing earlier, with tripled lifespans and far less tress. That's got to count for something.

Not really. All those defenses you discuss presume an initially organized society, not SMFL. Living in the ruins doesn't constitute thriving existence.

Like all big changes, society simply uses the preexisting infrastructure. I have no idea why anyone would want to start from nothing.

Again, this is false - it is nostalgia and fallacious. The populace in the "Wild Wild West" wasn't less evolved than we are; they had far stricter punishment, far stronger moral codes, but in many ways were potentially more intellectual than we are.

But they were so in the dark compared to education levels now (even considering the recent US literacy problems). They were stuck with what they had. People don't want to go back to crude methods when the newer medicine is proven to work.

At those IBM classes I'm taking my son to, we met the guy who invented LASIK. He suggested to the assembled group that maybe one of them can come up with the cure to global warming, and he also presumes that you can essentially experiment upon soldiers without their agreement or permission. Is he more intellectually advanced than a cowboy who read The Iliad because it was the only book he had in the saddlebag?

I'd presume he is. But luckily, the majority who have stronger moral values would probably overrule his.

However, they all involve mutual defence of some variety. Of those options, and even with the considerations involving attack vs. defence, a disorganized society such as SMFL simply is unable to defend itself when faced with an organized attacker (my examples of the Conquest). The contrary assertion is that the colonists and the Spanish both possessed technological advantage, but not only were those not the only issue, but how do you think they achieved that technological superiority in the first place?

Times are so different now. With nukes eventually becoming mainstream, does an army size really matter? Nations with nukes tend to not invade each other.

Do you seriously believe that the bulk of humanity is somehow inherently better than it used to be? Think that over very carefully - it's not just because Americans live in such luxurious existence that we have become more craven than our forefathers, and the Greatest Generation had it's full share of scoundrels, thugs, and cowards.

I'll go with "yes" on that one. As bad as we still are today, we don't accept public torture (of which there was an near infinite variety), beating of slaves, brutal punishment or killing of children, etc. Sure, we still have what can be considered slavery by some, child abuse, etc, but at least we generally see the past norms as disgraceful. Even water boarding is at least designed to not kill the prisoner. These things take a long time to improve.

You're normally not one for magical Leftist thinking, so I'm surprised to see it here. This isn't a technological advancement, but a social one you're claiming would spontaneously occur. All evidence points to the contrary.

I find the "left" and "right" are caricatures built up to demonize enemies and maintain distractions. All the common sense values lie in neither extreme end of those groups. The discussion is indeed of a fantasy society, no argument there. I don't suggest it would happen spontaneously, though.

Quite false. They are the richer lands which the Vikings raped and pillaged.
Think that's going to help them?

I believe an English army was raised to put an end to the Viking plight. In those days, tax was all they knew, so that's how it got done I suppose. They got around to it. Now that people know better, I doubt total passivism will be the wave of the future. We have knowledge that people form those times, the natives, etc, didn't.

[BobCox2]

Oh, and guys - HAPPY SEQUESTER DAY!

Seriously, check that one - feckin' hilarious.

A day that will live in....

?

Checks Results

http://money.cnn.com/data/markets/

Symbol	Last	Change
Dow	14,127.82	38.16(0.27%)
Nasdaq	3,182.03	12.29(0.39%)
S&P 500	1,525.20	7.00(0.46%)
10-Yr Bond	1.8770%	0.0240

Well congress did finally DO SOMETHING by doing nothing...

THAT DOW IS CLOSE THE THE RECORD LEVEL BTW

[jmervyn]

It's early yet!

Pfft. Reminds me of, "Communism and Socialism have only killed 100M people; let's give it another chance!"

That's got to count for something.

People are divided between the delusional and the realists, perhaps. Attribution of health, height, and power due to SOCIAL improvements in surroundings don't equate to some sort of wild-eyed "human evolution!" evidence. North Korea stands as perfect counter to that fallacious concept.

The cause for that foolishness is a variant of provincialism. Humans like to think of themselves as the author of their own advancements, rather than the recognition that not only are they really no better than their ancestors, but that they owe their advancements TO their ancestors.

Like all big changes, society simply uses the preexisting infrastructure. I have no idea why anyone would want to start from nothing.

There's a children's book series, and even a movie IIRC, about people living in a Fallout-style vault called The City of Ember. It draws a perfect parallel to the problem I identified with SMFL; when people no longer have the luxury of ultra-specialization, they are no longer able to support the technological advancements which the previous society made possible. There's far more example of such failures than of the "Star Trek" style high-tech-amongst-the-savages scenarios (almost like someone's favorite S.T. episode); humanity WANTS to torch the Library of Alexandria.

But they were so in the dark compared to education levels now (even considering the recent US literacy problems).

False. GENERAL literacy was certainly lower, but in like fashion, education was far more prized because it was not readily available. Compare to modern Afghanistan, where a ball-point is a prized possession because it implies literacy. However, those with the opportunity to educate (self- or otherwise) were far more driven than our contemporaries. Michael Crichton wrote most of his novels dropping bombs on this modern tendency, and it's no wonder that of high-level degrees, only a miniscule fraction are granted to Westerners any longer.

People don't want to go back to crude methods when the newer medicine is proven to work.

You'll find that intent and motivation has a lot more to do with it than you would believe. There's no longer a "whip hand" in the West, because it is far better that you spout Politically Correct nonsense than really broaden your mind - and you'll certainly not be starving in the process.

I'd presume he is.

I think that's a false presumption. Is Plato somehow less enlightened than Maya Angelou simply because he's no longer among the living?

With nukes eventually becoming mainstream, does an army size really matter? Nations with nukes tend to not invade each other.

That's the popular opinion, but IMO that's really not going to matter. Destroying the other guy's population centers happened just as easily in previous eras, and the U.S. is the only country which really did so with nuclear munitions. You can't nuke armies like you can cities.

However, that's a sparkling red herring, and you didn't answer the problem with SMFL.

I'll go with "yes" on that one.

You're simply wrong there, still. If anything, we are on the precipice to a far greater degree than in previous times. There is NOTHING innately better about the populace as a whole; they are far more ready to feck each-other over for a tiny reward than used to be the case. The only reason torture is considered so "bad" is that the Leftists were clocking overtime drilling the West on how "bad" it is, particularly when it involved a wet washcloth on the face. This while Enrique Camarena was kept alive by a MD so that he could be tortured more effectively, and America actually surrendered the doctor back to Mexico after going through the trouble of kidnapping him!

Sorry, but this "we're better because we're newer" concept is horsecrap, plain & simple.

I find the "left" and "right" are caricatures built up to demonize enemies and maintain distractions. All the common sense values lie in neither extreme end of those groups. The discussion is indeed of a fantasy society, no argument there. I don't suggest it would happen spontaneously, though.

Obviously, I would disagree with your belief in pure caricature. The Left truly does believe that a monolithic Socialized system wielding absolute power is the best model for society, while the "Right" simply ignores their ideal of complete decentralization and self-sufficiency because it's not profitable to those who gain said power.

We have knowledge that people form those times, the natives, etc, didn't.

Appeal to novelty, yet again, and unsupported by evidence. Pirates out of the Somalian coastal areas have been preying upon shipping for a couple of decades now, yet ships don't even carry firearms because they're more concerned about insurance liability.

EDIT - there's always room for a cartoon, discussing this fabled "evolution"...

[BobCox2]

[LozHinge the Unhinged]

!!!1!one!!11!onethousandonehundredandeleven!!1!

[Dredd]

You struck gold with that one, Blob.

EDIT: Jesus wasn't anti-war though. Common misconception.

[landlordde]

I am not a true" Libertarian.I believe norms.You may call me a conservative mind.America is the land of free.Claiming intellectual ownership of pupils' school work seems to be very unrealistic.


ip attorneys

[jmervyn]

You struck gold with that one, Blob.

Calling a finger in the nose as 'striking gold' is hardly legitimate. Found this piece; think I already used it regarding a Marx quote in the Cypriot bank business.

“To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey.” - Matthew 25:15


I have often heard the above excerpt from Jesus’ “Parable of the Talents” used as a text-proof that Christians are supposed to be Socialists. Every time I hear this, I grab the duct tape to wrap around my forehead so that my head does not explode [apologies to Glenn Beck]. This is, of course, sophistry and folly on their part. Socialism is an economic construct of Utopian Collectivists of the mid-Eighteenth Century.


I suppose one could then ask a Socialist debating partner what Jesus’ response was to some Herodians and Pharisee leaders who entered into a question about taxation. They were the leaders of two religious-political parties at that time. They had asked Jesus whether it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar. The trap was to draw Jesus into a temporal political-economic discussion and then call into question his teachings. Jesus, in turn, asked them who’s head was on the coin. They replied, “Caesar’s.” And so it was that Jesus answered them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” Jesus saw this debating trap easily. We should recognize it today. Paying taxes is separate from honoring God.

[BobCox2]

Calling a finger in the nose as 'striking gold' is hardly legitimate. Found this piece; think I already used it regarding a Marx quote in the Cypriot bank business.

His points at the link are?
1) Socialism was invented by Marx, Jesus Predates Marx, therefor; Jesus can't have been socialist.
2) Now that thats taken care of, Obama is Bad! Rant time

Can you identify the Fallacy here?

Quit sitting on your thumbs.

[krischan]

But Karl Marx didn't invent socialism. He invented communism.