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  1. #71

    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    Clearly, you guys have two very different views of anarchy.
    Obviously, but instead of recognizing that perhaps we're using a label to mean two different things, and that we should talk about the underlying ideas and not the label, instead Jmervyn has latched onto that one word and keeps repeating what he thinks the definition is.

    But perhaps your solution is correct. Henceforth, I shall call my preferred society Saro's Magic Fantasy Land (tm), or SMFL for short. Maybe then we can get past the definitions phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    The type of anarchy Saro is talking about has probably never, ever, ever existed.
    You might be surprised, actually. Murray Rothbard has a very interesting section in For a New Liberty about ancient Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    nothing awful happens.
    I wouldn't say that, because it would be naive to think so. There will still be theft, murder, etc., they just won't be institutionalized and championed as a patriotic duty, and there will be a market in stopping them. One of the most frustrating things about discussing SMFL is that people ask "But who will protect you from thieves???" to which my answer is always, "How does a government protect you from thieves when the first thing it does is steal from you?".

    Quote Originally Posted by stillman View Post
    Obviously, the wise goal is to have enough people respecting each other first, and then try this
    Or it could be the case that the longer the current system goes on, the less we respect each other, until it all ends violently. I think even Jmervyn can see that coming down the track.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    you're ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    Moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    you are my enemy, because you're so stupid
    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    Again, you're a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    moronic
    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    lunatic and moronic
    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    Right up your alley, no brain and all that
    It's like he's trying to tell me something . . .

  2. #72
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    So as long as the government isn't the party that is stealing from you, it's all good in SMFL?

    I must say, that one time someone stole my bicycle ... I felt OK about it because it was some little oik who nicked it, and not the government. Had it actually been that pesky government, well boy, I may have really blown my stack ...

  3. #73
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Obviously, but instead of recognizing that perhaps we're using a label to mean two different things, and that we should talk about the underlying ideas and not the label, instead Jmervyn has latched onto that one word and keeps repeating what he thinks the definition is.
    "what he thinks the definition is" is what the definition is. Hence what I'm calling you. Traditional definitions shouldn't mean whatever the feck you feel like they should; see "Liberal", which is why I avoid using that term now.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    But perhaps your solution is correct. Henceforth, I shall call my preferred society Saro's Magic Fantasy Land (tm), of SMFL for short. Maybe then we can get past the definitions phase.
    Fair enough. How can SMFL exist without falling prey to organized violence on even the lowest level (that of the 'tribe')?
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    You might be surprised, actually. Murray Rothbard has a very interesting section in For a New Liberty about ancient Ireland.
    Ancient Ireland was an absolute wonderland of violence and savagery. I'm "High Lord" in Gaelic, remember?

    Bet you didn't know that the tradition of Christmas decorations came from hanging your enemies' heads on the tree by strips of their own skin...
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    I wouldn't say that, because it would be naive to think so.
    Ahem.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    There will still be theft, murder, etc., they just won't be institutionalized and championed as a patriotic duty, and there will be a market in stopping them.
    Nice to know you consider me a thief, murderer, bully, and extortionist rather than just a mercenary.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    One of the most frustrating things about discussing SMFL is that people ask "But will will protect you from thieves???" to which my answer is always, "How does a government protect you from thieves when the first thing they do is steal from you?".
    What is to prevent the protection racket (which you consider so superior to my sworn Oath and moral obligation) from turning into an equally if not greater menace? History is full of examples which, yes, make you sound like a moron. If you want it in easy-to-swallow Hollywood form, check out "Gangs of New York" (about private for-profit fire companies at the turn of the century). Also easily considered is the "Black Hand", which later kinda-sorta evolved into the Mafia (though not really the same; the Mafia displaced la mano nera.

    SMFL relies upon complete enlightenment and Randian benevolent self-interest, when humanity has repeatedly shown how asinine those concepts are when trying to execute a plan based upon them.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Or it could be the case that the longer the current system goes on, the less we respect each other, until it all ends violently. I think even Jmervyn can see that coming down the track.
    I still need to buy a generator, but the problem is that I wasn't able to install a hybrid wood/oil furnace last year. Couldn't get a clear answer on the NY permits to do so, because NY nearly passed legislation outlawing the burning of wood for heating.

    Violence? Bring it. If I don't die at the hands of the "Golden Horde" when it first issues forth from the City, I'll last longer than you will. You'll see your Anarchy first hand; best wishes trying to achieve SMFL.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    It's like he's trying to tell me something . . .
    Like I said, best wishes trying to achieve SMFL. Something has to be the sheepdogs' dinner.

  4. #74

    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    So as long as the government isn't the party that is stealing from you, it's all good in SMFL?
    Where did you get that idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    "what he thinks the definition is" is what the definition is.
    And here you continue to shout "But I'm right! But I'm right! But I'm right!" over and over again. I understand that you think you're right. Let's get past it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    Nice to know you consider me a thief, murderer, bully, and extortionist rather than just a mercenary.
    The state owns nothing legitimately, and everything it has it has stolen. Receiving a government paycheck/handout does not make one a thief, in my book, as you are simply relieving the true thief of its ill-gotten gains. Whether or not you vote for higher taxes is my rule of thumb.

    And I don't know your military history, so I can't say whether or not you're a murderer.

  5. #75
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Where did you get that idea?

    [...]
    I extrapolated it from the quote below.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    [...]

    I wouldn't say that, because it would be naive to think so. There will still be theft, murder, etc., they just won't be institutionalized and championed as a patriotic duty, and there will be a market in stopping them. One of the most frustrating things about discussing SMFL is that people ask "But who will protect you from thieves???" to which my answer is always, "How does a government protect you from thieves when the first thing it does is steal from you?".

    [...]
    It isn't a stretch, Saro and I am not posturing. The logic of your quote immediately above is incomprehensible and not because I am comprehension-impaired.

    I'll try to give you an equivalent scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by From the SMFL Times
    Don't worry about the Jones Street Gang stealing from you. At least the Hole In The Wall gang aren't doing that.
    Please, try to gain back some credibility and explain your position, or acknowledge your lack of one, as regards this point.
    At the very least, can you explain what market will prevent the theft and, at the same time, not be susceptible to market forces that may encourage such thefts.

  6. #76
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Where did you get that idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    I extrapolated it from the quote below.
    Just so. I'd quote The Princess Bride about Saro's word comprehension, but it would be redundant.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    I understand that you think you're right. Let's get past it.
    IMO you're as bad as the Leftists who deliberately try to redefine language to conceal their intent. Words have meaning. That's what they're for.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    The state owns nothing legitimately, and everything it has it has stolen.
    This is a completely false statement. The State (capitalized in the sense of the ruling entity, rather than the American CONUS) does not necessarily steal; in many cases it relies upon an honest basis of compensation for services rendered. The difficulty occurs when as an example I have to pay NY auto taxes - there's no true correlation between the services rendered, there's a very good chance I'm being over-billed due to the monopoly which State force causes, and it is in the bureaucrat's best interest to double-charge.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Receiving a government paycheck/handout does not make one a thief, in my book, as you are simply relieving the true thief of its ill-gotten gains. Whether or not you vote for higher taxes is my rule of thumb.
    Should I add juvenile to the list? You conflate payment for services with stealing, when in SMFL heaven the concept of payment for services is inherent to the function of the society.

    I could get into your whole {moronic} concept of each man being an island and how that falls when confronted with truly specialized society, but I'm hoping the DDO update will finish soon. Later on we can discuss both the Native American societies in the face of European settlers, and as a counter-point the Central American nations in the face of Spanish Conquistadores.
    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    It isn't a stretch, Saro and I am not posturing. The logic of your quote immediately above is incomprehensible and not because I am comprehension-impaired.
    Hardly. You ought to just move past the teasing and right into the humorous abuse phase, as have I.
    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    Please, try to gain back some credibility and explain your position, or acknowledge your lack of one, as regards this point.
    At the very least, can you explain what market will prevent the theft and, at the same time, not be susceptible to market forces that may encourage such thefts.
    Bated breath...

  7. #77
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    jmervyn

    IncGamers Member


    you troll so well

    The only thing that saves you is that you've been banned so long.


  8. #78

    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    I extrapolated it from the quote below.
    Where did I say theft was hunky-dory as long as the state wasn't doing it?

    I said things like theft and murder will always be with us (i.e. there is no utopia), not that I was cool with theft and murder. If I say that we shouldn't pour gasoline on a house fire, would you ask me how that will put the fire out? This belief that government violence is some kind of dam against the raging hordes (rather than gasoline on a fire) is pervasive.

    Take the drug war as an example. If I say drugs should be legalized, someone inevitably comes back with "but we would have drug problems!" Well, no **** we would have drug problems after they were legalized! But we have drug problems now, and the so-called War on Drugs has not only not solved them, but amplified their effects. So you get ridiculous arguments like this:

    "What if a junkie buys a vial of heroin at Walgreens, shoots it up, then walks right into traffic and causes a bus-load of orphans to go flying off the cliff?? What then???"

    Well, in the current system:

    (1) The price of drugs is sky-high due to the drug war, so before he can buy his heroin, he does hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage tearing down light posts to pawn the copper wiring so he can pay for his hit. (Of course, the heroin is of questionable quality since it's being sold on the black market instead of a legitimate business, so maybe he has a bad reaction to whatever rat poison they've cut it with and racks up a few hundred thousand dollars in medical bills as a bonus).

    (2) And speaking of the people selling him the heroin, let's not forget who the money goes to now. I don't know how you feel about Walgreens, but they normally don't hack the heads off of people or fund international terrorism.

    (3) When it comes to competition, I can't remember the last time Walgreens employees did a drive-by on a CVS over a territory dispute, so you can pretty much lay all the people (innocent and otherwise) that get shot dead in inner city gang wars at the door of drug prohibition too.

    (4) And now the police want to get in on the racket of asset forfeiture money, so you've got them kicking down doors at 2 AM, shooting anything that moves and some things that don't (and if you don't believe me, you have some reading to do), plus the complete destruction of the 4th amendment in the name of the drug war ("My magic drug dog licked his balls, so now I can search your car. Haha!")

    And then, after the journalists have had their heads hacked off, the bystanders have been shot in the drive-bys, and some poor sap gets gunned down by a SWAT team meathead for sitting up in bed too quickly, comes the final insult:

    (5) The junkie still gets his heroin, walks right into traffic and causes a bus-load of orphans to go flying off the cliff.

    So don't ask how not throwing gas on the fire fixes the fire. It doesn't, but the first step is to stop feeding it.

    At the very least, can you explain what market will prevent the theft and, at the same time, not be susceptible to market forces that may encourage such thefts.
    Local police forces funded by voluntary payments have an incentive to serve their customers. Police forces paid by theft do not. Insurance companies who have to reimburse customers for stolen items have an incentive to recover those items. Police forces paid by theft do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jmervyn
    compensation for services rendered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jmervyn
    payment for services
    Payment has to be voluntary or it's not payment: it's theft. If I think my local police force sucks, and I would like to withdraw my funding and put it towards a better police force, how do I do that?

  9. #79
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh





    Hey I got from a student.

    Ever hear of undergraduate work?

  10. #80
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: Board of education claims intellectual ownership of pupils' school work... ehh wh

    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Where did I say theft was hunky-dory as long as the state wasn't doing it?
    Where did I say that you said that non-state theft was hunky-dory?

    I said things like theft and murder will always be with us (i.e. there is no utopia), not that I was cool with theft and murder.
    Thanks for answering my implicit question. It was phrased as a question after all.

    If I say that we shouldn't pour gasoline on a house fire, would you ask me how that will put the fire out?
    No, I would suggest that your crazy ideas just got a little less crazy.

    This belief that government violence is some kind of dam against the raging hordes (rather than gasoline on a fire) is pervasive.
    Yes. But why?

    Take the drug war as an example.
    OK, we can go on a little sight-seeing tour if you like. We have time.

    If I say drugs should be legalized, someone inevitably comes back with "but we would have drug problems!" Well, no **** we would have drug problems after they were legalized! But we have drug problems now, and the so-called War on Drugs has not only not solved them, but amplified their effects. So you get ridiculous arguments like this:

    "What if a junkie buys a vial of heroin at Walgreens, shoots it up, then walks right into traffic and causes a bus-load of orphans to go flying off the cliff?? What then???"
    I'm not going to argue for or against the "war on drugs", on the basis that I am unconvinced that it is either effective or actually warranted. It seems bonkers to me that some substances, ranging from slightly harmful to life-destroying, are the subject of so much control and criminal activity whilst other substances, known to be harmful in certain cases, receive much less scrutiny (alcohol, for example).
    I haven't crystallised my view on this issue a.k.a. I'm on the fence.

    Well, in the current system:

    [funny stories]

    So don't ask how not throwing gas on the fire fixes the fire. It doesn't, but the first step is to stop feeding it.
    Any straw men burned during that demonstration? Seems likely, with all that gasoline and such.

    Local police forces funded by voluntary payments have an incentive to serve their customers. Police forces paid by theft do not.
    Uh, can you step through the logic on that? Perhaps the voluntary payments are made with real currency whilst the payments made through taxes/thievery are Monopoly money?

    Insurance companies who have to reimburse customers for stolen items have an incentive to recover those items. Police forces paid by theft do not.
    Huh? Try a different tack?

    Payment has to be voluntary or it's not payment: it's theft.
    I voluntarily pay for services such as fire and police already. I have the same choice of "opting out" as I do when faced with my electricity bill or filling up at the gas station. If I don't want to pay for the services, I stop working for a living in the society that creates my markets, my customers, my agricultural workers, my police force, my health care specialists, my car industry ... all the things that are created by civilisation. We may all one day return to our hunter-gatherer roots, but there won't be many of us around then. De facto SMFL may actually come into being then.

    If I think my local police force sucks, and I would like to withdraw my funding and put it towards a better police force, how do I do that?
    I like your local police force but I've decided not to pay for it. I'll let you do that. Paying is voluntary, after all!

    However, to answer your question - in SMFL if you decide you want to pay for a different police force, you ask the people around you if they feel the same. If they don't, well, gawrsh, you're on your own, mate! You'll have to keep paying anyway.
    If your associates do feel the same way, you can all approach the current police force and tell them they will no longer be paid for their services. I'm sure they won't take that badly and will go off and find other useful employment, and not take over the town by force or take up a life of banditry.

    In the world we currently live in, there are ways - unreliable, broken, inconsistent ways - of getting rid of police officers who do not meet the required standards of probity or quality. It happens sometimes, often in the UK for sure. I've even heard of it happening in the US.

    The broken system we currently have works better than the broken system you're putting forth. Your calling of a thing "theft" doesn't make it theft, any more than pissing in my pocket and telling me it's raining is going make me anything but skeptical. And mad.

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