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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Poison Nova generally does equivalent or greater (and occasionally a bit less) poison damage per second than Poison Explosion, depending upon the exact roll on the damage. This means that even if you use Poison Explosion, it will almost certainly either (1) have zero effect as the current Poison Nova is superior in damage, or (2) be quickly overridden by the next Poison Nova and have zero effect. In those terms, it would be better not to use the skill at all, unless you are using exclusively Poison Explosion without any Poison Nova at all for the longer duration. That is beyond inefficient, considering the relative abilities of the two skills to actually hit their desired targets.

    A maxed Corpse Explosion can kill things not even on your screen, which separates it from a single point Corpse Explosion buffered by however many + skills. The skill deals the exact damage within its own radius, but the damage is not exactly the same when considering the total number of enemies within their respective radii. It is much more reliable than Poison Explosion (static radius of 4? yards) regardless, not to mention it actually does damage.

    I'm not trying to say you can't play the way that you want to play. It's perfectly fine to use Poison Explosion/Dagger, Revives, Fire Wall, and so on if that's what fits into your definition of fun. Implying that Poison Explosion is even close to as efficient as simply Poison Nova + Corpse Explosion, however, is beyond laughable.

  2. #12
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Quote Originally Posted by NagisaFurukawa View Post
    Poison Nova generally does equivalent or greater (and occasionally a bit less) poison damage per second than Poison Explosion, depending upon the exact roll on the damage. This means that even if you use Poison Explosion, it will almost certainly either (1) have zero effect as the current Poison Nova is superior in damage, or (2) be quickly overridden by the next Poison Nova and have zero effect. In those terms, it would be better not to use the skill at all, unless you are using exclusively Poison Explosion without any Poison Nova at all for the longer duration. That is beyond inefficient, considering the relative abilities of the two skills to actually hit their desired targets.
    I've never found it difficult to hit things with Poison Explosion. I already said that of course I wouldn't be using Poison Explosion if I'm also spamming Poison Nova. I wouldn't use Corpse Explosion in that case either, although I can't be sure if that would be true in all cases. For a full Trang-Oul's set, the slow casting speed makes it untenable (Poison Nova will have worn off, albeit barely, by the time I have a chance to cast it again after switching to Corpse Explosion once and casting it).

    A maxed Corpse Explosion can kill things not even on your screen, which separates it from a single point Corpse Explosion buffered by however many + skills. The skill deals the exact damage within its own radius, but the damage is not exactly the same when considering the total number of enemies within their respective radii. It is much more reliable than Poison Explosion (static radius of 4? yards) regardless, not to mention it actually does damage.
    If you want to clear, say, The Pit on /players1, then yeah, Corpse Explosion will kill some enemies before they even show up onscreen. But what if you're in the Worldstone Keep and some Black Souls have gotten piled up in a corridor, perhaps with other monsters in front of them. Trying to get too close would be dangerous. Poison Nova could probably hit them without letting you get hit. But one thing I've done in that sort of scenario is let Revives tank the monsters while I hit them all with a couple of Poison Explosions. There wouldn't be enough corpses there to kill them with Corpse Explosion, but with Poison Explosion a single corpse can devastate and possibly kill everything around it, even on /players8.

    I'm not trying to say you can't play the way that you want to play. It's perfectly fine to use Poison Explosion/Dagger, Revives, Fire Wall, and so on if that's what fits into your definition of fun. Implying that Poison Explosion is even close to as efficient as simply Poison Nova + Corpse Explosion, however, is beyond laughable.
    Pretend it was some silly theme build if you want. It beat Hell on /players8 way faster than my decked out summoner with a maxed Corpse Explosion.

  3. #13
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Lol. Poison explosion is MUCH worse than corpse explosion. Not even comparable.
    Sure you can play through the game with poison explosion alone, or not use CE, this doesn't mean its good.

    All necros use CE. It simply is their best ability, the end.

  4. #14
    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    It's not a question of whether Poison Explosion is easy to hit things with, rather that it's just easier to hit them with Poison Nova. The usage of full Trang's is already supremely inefficient, rendering the argument of cast rate and such meaningless.

    CE has the same amount of damage potential in all areas, as it scales depending upon /p1 unadjusted monster life. WSK on /p1 is no different than Pit on /p1. In the scenario you provided, would be much easier to just DV the Black Souls and start a CE chain by killing the other monsters in the area. There is a difference between things that can kill (PE) and things that kill the most effectively in the greatest number of scenarios (CE).

    Why are you comparing the speed of a summoner to a poisonmancer to begin with? A "decked out" poisonmancer can be one of the faster area clearing characters in the game when using only Poison Nova/Corpse Explosion, regardless of /players setting. My average run time for Pit on /p7 over 3000+ runs during an MF tournament was 80 seconds (sample run) even without 'Infinity', which I highly doubt could be managed with PE.

    I'll say it again. PE is nice. My character before the tournament was actually a pure PE necromancer. It was great fun, and it was very rewarding luring monsters into their death. It just wasn't the extremely efficient killer that PN + CE proved to be.

    EDIT: I rarely agree with zaph, but when I do, it's about something as completely obvious as this. -_-;;

  5. #15
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Btw. If you have any doubt how badly the necromancer skills suck compared to CE, check out the Mercmancer thread for some numbers.

    In an MP setting, replace 'merc' with other characters who can get corpses on the ground even quicker.

    In general:
    Poison nova works okay for low hp trash mobs.
    Skeletons/revives are great tanks.
    Merc is the dps to get bodies on the ground.
    CE blows up everything.

    Ofc there are other ways to play the necromancer. But this is the optimum in terms of damage dealing in a cookie cutter way.

  6. #16
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    The internet ate my last reply. I can't remember everything I said, so I'll try again...

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphodbrx
    All necros use CE. It simply is their best ability, the end.
    Well, that seems pretty definitive. Also, it's a massive oversimplification. Corpse Explosion is useful and yeah, I've always put at least one point into it. It's the best ability when there are loads of corpses around and you want to rapidly take down everything in a large area. Presumably you wouldn't try to claim that it's the best ability the necromancer has when fighting Duriel, for example. I've found plenty of times with multiple archetypes of necromancer that sometimes I'm better off using what corpses I come across for Revive, rather than Corpse Explosion.

    Also, I don't think I bothered going into this before, but insisting that Poison Explosion is useless because Corpse Explosion is "better" is another oversimplification. Corpse Explosion, on account of its far greater area of effect and rapid damage output, is generally of far greater utility value than Poison Explosion. I can easily see why that would see it labeled "outclassed" or "worse than Corpse Explosion." But "junk" and "worst skill in the game"? A necromancer that has it at all is likely to have it maxed for synergy purposes. A maxed Poison Explosion (which will itself be fully synergized) does far more damage than Corpse Explosion. Against a particularly beefy monster, that can matter. I have used the skill in cases where Corpse Explosion wouldn't have helped much.

    Btw. If you have any doubt how badly the necromancer skills suck compared to CE, check out the Mercmancer thread for some numbers.
    Yeah, I've seen that. A bit gimmicky, but still pretty cool. Of course, it is true that Corpse Explosion is the best way for a necromancer to do a lot of damage in a cookie cutter way in most places in the game. That doesn't mean other skills suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagisafurukawa
    It's not a question of whether Poison Explosion is easy to hit things with, rather that it's just easier to hit them with Poison Nova. The usage of full Trang's is already supremely inefficient, rendering the argument of cast rate and such meaningless.
    You seem to be fond of overstatement, with phrases like "supremely inefficient" and "beyond laughable." If you don't like full Trang-Oul's, that's fine, but I did take it through Hell on /players8 and I know that it's not "supremely inefficient." Survivability and killing speed were both above average for the characters I've played. The super-fast walking speed is nice and the fire skills are great for killing poison-immunes (maxed Lower Resist probably helped a bit with that too, although I never did the math to see just how much).

    But point taken that full Trang-Oul's isn't relevant to the general utility of combining Poison Nova and Corpse Explosion. I guess I'll have to try it out on my second poison necro. Since I haven't tried it, I guess I have to reserve judgment. Seems like it would be hard to get many Corpse Explosions off while keeping Poison Nova applied constantly. When I've used Corpse Explosion, it's been spamming the skill, not interrupting it with another spell every two seconds.

    CE has the same amount of damage potential in all areas, as it scales depending upon /p1 unadjusted monster life.
    Well, no. There are differential physical and fire resistances, densities of monsters available for corpses, and other factors. Surely you'd notice that it clears the Maggot Lair and such far more easily than the Chaos Sanctuary. If weak monsters are abundant and drop quickly due to some other source of damage, that gives a lot of corpses available to start a big Corpse Explosion chain. If monsters are sparser and stronger, Corpse Explosion is intermittent (or you have to wait for corpses to build up).

    Why are you comparing the speed of a summoner to a poisonmancer to begin with?
    The part I quoted when I noted that made it seem like my poison necro was some zany build that might be able to beat the game, but isn't actually well-suited to doing so. I know that's not the case because I'd already beaten Hell on /players8 with a summoner (with Corpse Explosion maxed, of course) and the Trang-Oul's poison build was faster and possibly safer most of the time.

    My average run time for Pit on /p7 over 3000+ runs during an MF tournament was 80 seconds (sample run) even without 'Infinity', which I highly doubt could be managed with PE.
    Maybe that's why the different emphasis on Corpse Explosion. I tend to only play by going through the entire game and then clearing random areas (mostly going after bosses though) once Hell is beaten. If I were going to run The Pit thousands of times with a necro, of course I'd max Corpse Explosion. But for general gameplay, I mostly see it accelerating monster kills that weren't a problem to begin with. When things get dangerous, I can't recall ever having said, "Corpse Explosion saved me there."
    Last edited by Namtar; 11-12-2012 at 01:20.

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