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  1. #1
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    Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    what is the maximum poison resistance any enemy will have in d2 expansion hell? Is there a point at which lower resist and gear such as bramble and trangs set bottoms out as far as effectiveness and gear and skill points could be better placed in other areas such as resist life ect?

  2. #2
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Poison immunities in hell can range anywhere between 0-100 or even more ( immune ). The minions of destruction in Baal's throneroom have 95% poison res, for instance. Broken immunities ( broken with lower resist ) will often be in the high 90s as well. Thus -poison resist on gear is nearly always good to have.

    Btw, bramble gives +psn skill damage not -psn res. Death's web does, though.

  3. #3
    D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator Mad Mantis's Avatar
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    There are a handful of monster types on Hell that have an immunity that can't be broken. Once your LR reaches level 10 (via hard points or +skills) you’re able to break all immunities that can be broken. It is useless to get a higher level LR than level 10. When breaking an immunity LR works at 1/5th of its original power. Once the enemies resists drop below 100% the -%Enemy Res equipment kicks in and lowers the enemies resists.

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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mantis View Post
    Once your LR reaches level 10 (via hard points or +skills) you’re able to break all immunities that can be broken. It is useless to get a higher level LR than level 10.
    I disagree. While it is true that Lower Resist suffers from some harsh diminishing returns, it does still give a single percentage point for every point in the skill up to 15, and since poison immunities are rather common, every little bit helps. If poison necromancers had some awesome skill to put points into, the slight damage increase from a stronger Lower Resist wouldn't be worth it, but there isn't much of interest once Poison Dagger, Poison Explosion, and Poison Nova are all maxed. The only competition for skill points that I can think of would come from Bone Prison/Wall for a stronger Bone Shield (mediocre on pure bone necromancers anyway and paltry if your skills are going into poison), Skeleton Mastery for stronger revives (useful, but a poison necromancer will be using Lower Resist far, far more often than relying on revives), Golem Mastery for a better tank (the way I play a poison necromancer, this would be a waste even compared to Lower Resist, but your mileage may vary), and Corpse Explosion (which I don't use anyway because I have a max Poison Explosion). I have a level 31 Lower Resist on one of my necromancers, which is noticeably stronger than a level 10 version of the skill (-66% vs. -54%). And he still has points elsewhere (Skeleton Mastery) after having maxed Lower Resist.

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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtar View Post
    and Corpse Explosion (which I don't use anyway because I have a max Poison Explosion).
    Seriously?
    Poison explosion is junk. It's nearly the worst skill in the game, nowhere even comparable to CE.
    Corpse explosion is the necromancer's signature and most powerful skill. Every other skill he has only has the function of slapping 4-5 bodies on the ground so that he can start a massive CE chain that devastates everything on the screen.
    Poison nova stands out a little as with the right equipment it can clear weak mobs pretty well on its own, but it's still nowhere as good as CE once you have bodies on the ground.
    When playing MP with any necromancer, I use exclusively curses and CE, sometimes a couple summons ( but make sure they don't get in the way ). Because necro's weak backup ( non-CE) spells are nothing compared to other toons dmg output.

  6. #6
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    I just remembered that I've seen you do this before. This is the second thread where you've portrayed Corpse Explosion as the necromancer's only real source of damage. It's apparently some sort of sacred cow for you. So while I'm sure we disagree on the relative utility of Corpse Explosion and other necromancer skills, I'll just say this for the poison necromancer.

    I've taken a poison necromancer (full Trang-Oul's with Blackbog's as the weapon) through Hell on /players8. I invested one point in Corpse Explosion, and only ever used it on occasions where there were lots of relatively weak unbreakable poison-immune monsters (infrequently enough that I didn't even have a hotkey for it), and at those points, the +16 from my gear gave the skill such range that dumping more points into it wouldn't have done much for me anyway, because the monsters I was intending to kill with it were already standing very close to the corpses I was blowing up. The rest of the time, if I needed to wipe out large hoards of weak monsters, Poison Nova did the job quickly and easily.

    Also, Poison Explosion is far from the worst skill. For most monsters, if Lower Resist is used, one hit from Poison Explosion is a death sentence.

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    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Poison Explosion does crazy damage, and it can certainly work. (I've taken a character through Hell who uses only that skill.) The fact that it CAN be good doesn't mean that it's most efficient. Corpse Explosion provides alternative damage types (fire/physical), while requiring fewer skill points (20, as opposed to 60) and most importantly having a huge radius which is much easier to work with. It also doesn't interfere with your usage of Poison Nova, which allows for the greatest possible DPS, and it is the ultimate utility/damage skill as far as other necromancer types.

  8. #8
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Quote Originally Posted by NagisaFurukawa View Post
    The fact that it CAN be good doesn't mean that it's most efficient. Corpse Explosion provides alternative damage types (fire/physical), while requiring fewer skill points (20, as opposed to 60) and most importantly having a huge radius which is much easier to work with.
    One doesn't invest the 40 skill points into Poison Nova and Poison Dagger merely to get a stronger Poison Explosion. The original question about Lower Resist was raised because of poison-focused necromancers, presumably using either Poison Dagger, Poison Nova, or both for most of the damage. Poison Explosion is merely some nice utility. My contention is that if you're already investing the 20 points into Poison Explosion for synergy purposes, you might as well take advantage of the skill itself, which can be rather handy. One could also max Corpse Explosion on top of this to get as much range as possible. I did max Corpse Explosion on my summoner (for something like a level 35 Corpse Explosion), so it's not like I've never seen it. I just wouldn't care to max the skill for its obscene range when I'm already using Lower Resist and Poison Nova to clear everything around me instead of casting Amplify Damage.

    If I'm facing non-immune targets, I don't see why it would be more convenient to switch between Poison Nova and Corpse Explosion "for greatest possible DPS" when I can just kill everything with a few hits from Poison Nova. Everyone plays differently. For my poison necro, I mainly only used Poison Explosion to nuke key single targets and to afflict big mobs of highly poison-resistant (but not immune after Lower Resist) with damage over time from a long distance. And I mainly only used Corpse Explosion on big mobs of unbreakable poison-immunes (so the way I used it on my poison necro, increasing the range beyond the 8 yards I already had wouldn't have been all that helpful). But really, I used Revive on far more corpses than either of the explosion skills.

  9. #9
    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    For a build using Poison Nova, Poison Explosion literally does nothing except remove corpses. Poison Nova and Poison Explosion deal approximately the same amount of damage per second, with the difference being that Poison Nova is virtually guaranteed to hit the majority of targets in the area. When you consider that only one source of poison can be dealing damage at any given time, Poison Nova is already taking care of all of your potential poison-based damage. Even a 1 point Corpse Explosion would be better than Poison Explosion, as it provides additional physical/fire damage over a much larger area. There is also the fact that half of Corpse Explosion damage is fire-based, allowing it to also benefit from Lower Resist. Last, keep in mind that Poison Nova does not kill everything equally fast, which means the monsters which generally die first (non-unique monsters, minions, etc.) will open the door for CE to deal additional damage to the larger targets.

    Everyone plays differently, and Poison Explosion is a viable skill in its own capacity, but Corpse Explosion is vastly superior.

  10. #10
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    Re: Poison necro question about lower poison resist

    Quote Originally Posted by NagisaFurukawa View Post
    For a build using Poison Nova, Poison Explosion literally does nothing except remove corpses. Poison Nova and Poison Explosion deal approximately the same amount of damage per second, with the difference being that Poison Nova is virtually guaranteed to hit the majority of targets in the area. When you consider that only one source of poison can be dealing damage at any given time, Poison Nova is already taking care of all of your potential poison-based damage. Even a 1 point Corpse Explosion would be better than Poison Explosion, as it provides additional physical/fire damage over a much larger area. There is also the fact that half of Corpse Explosion damage is fire-based, allowing it to also benefit from Lower Resist. Last, keep in mind that Poison Nova does not kill everything equally fast, which means the monsters which generally die first (non-unique monsters, minions, etc.) will open the door for CE to deal additional damage to the larger targets.

    Everyone plays differently, and Poison Explosion is a viable skill in its own capacity, but Corpse Explosion is vastly superior.
    You seem to be portraying a scenario in which monsters take a long time to die, there are lots of them, and there are also lots of corpses. I don't see that happening very often. Most of the time when I'm using Poison Nova, monsters drop after only a few uses. I could switch to Corpse Explosion, but it would be inconvenient and only slightly speed things up at best. If instead of hoards of weak monsters I'm facing smaller packs of tough monsters, I'm probably using Poison Dagger and possibly Revive. If the big monsters start to pile up, then I'm inclined to use Poison Explosion so that I can hit swaths of them with long-duration poison and not have to worry about reapplying it while I use other skills (Bone Prison, Poison Dagger on bosses, Bone Wall, maybe start replenishing my Revives, recasting Bone Armor, recasting Fire Golem, Fire Wall, possibly Decrepify or Lifetap, and so on). That's not to say I'd never use Corpse Explosion either. I've used it in plenty of situations. It's a useful skill. But you know, when you say "even a 1 point Corpse Explosion would be better" you should keep in mind that a maxed Corpse Explosion will be doing exactly zero more damage in its radius than a one-pointer and with +skills, that one-point CE is going to get a pretty big radius anyway.

    Yes, in the context of spamming Poison Nova, rapidly switching to Corpse Explosion in between PN casts gives more damage output than doing the same with Poison Explosion (I'm not even sure that this would work with the Trang-Oul setup I used for my first poison necro, but I'd buy that it could be done for other builds). If that's the criterion for "vastly superior" then it's no contest. But for a poison necromancer, Poison Explosion gives synergy points and does way more damage than Corpse Explosion.

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