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  1. #21
    IncGamers Member Crunchy II's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchy II View Post
    The +APS from the Echoing Fury is applied to the off-hand too. So that 1.43 EF effectively turns the 1.66 Dagger into a 1.89 Dagger! That surely makes an EF pretty godly?
    I'm surprised this hasn't been replied to more. Dethklok is claiming that Echoing Fury is a waste of money but he appears to overlook this fact. You can verify this on the stat details, in game. It's modelled in damage calculators such as d3rawr. It's also mentioned on various forums:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6412102731

    The only problem with an EF is the fear proc can be annoying as the mob can run out of your tornadoes and whirlwind. However, if you get one with CHD it's expensive but hard to beat the damage it gives your barb!

  2. #22
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchy II View Post
    I'm surprised this hasn't been replied to more. Dethklok is claiming that Echoing Fury is a waste of money but he appears to overlook this fact. You can verify this on the stat details, in game. It's modelled in damage calculators such as d3rawr. It's also mentioned on various forums:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6412102731

    The only problem with an EF is the fear proc can be annoying as the mob can run out of your tornadoes and whirlwind. However, if you get one with CHD it's expensive but hard to beat the damage it gives your barb!
    To me, that verifies that it really does display the added attack speed. I'll test to see if it actually uses it. I may have been (very!) wrong.

  3. #23
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Here is his gear with 1060 dps OH in Set 1, 225.6 dps OH Set 2 and 14.4 dps OH Set 3 -> http://www.d3rawr.com/d-N0of4 (all buffs enabled)

    Set 1 - 1060 dps OH:

    Main Hand swing before using Sprint and WW: 1179484 DPS
    Off Hand swing before using Sprint and WW: 1220206 DPS

    Set 2 - 225.6 dps OH:

    Main Hand swing before using Sprint and WW: 967548 DPS
    Off Hand swing before using Sprint and WW: 1084329 DPS

    Set 3 - 14.4 dps OH:

    Main Hand swing before using Sprint and WW: 929936 DPS
    Off Hand swing before using Sprint and WW: 1056120 DPS

    I wouldn't say "Use a Toothbrush" (okay it's not that big but there is still a 15% (23% with the same weapon speed / ticks) difference between Set 1 and 2). He should do the tests again without Overpower, with the same weapon speed and make sure he starts with the same weapon before using Sprint & WW.

  4. #24
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Dethklok did you come up with some math supporting your standpoint after all?

    I have had a suspicion about this mechanic for some time now and was pleasantly surprised to see someone actually trying to prove/disprove numbers in this. I have been toying with EF/daggers in offhand for some time now and my overall "feel" is not what the general consensus (ef is superior and oh dps does matter in not a marginal way) is nowadays.

  5. #25
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by tehpanta View Post
    Dethklok did you come up with some math supporting your standpoint after all?
    When I started my video testing, I expected one of two results:
    1. The weapons attack at the same speed, confirming that Echoing Fury effects both weapons equally.
    2. The rare Demolisher attacks at its old rate of speed, and it's a straight-up display bug.

    However, the actual results matched neither of these expectations.

    Trying to correct for frame rounding in my video, I set frame capture rate to 60 frames per second (same as D3), then set pre-fury aps to 2.00 with a 0.24 fury to bump up to 2.40 aps; that should have made it exactly 30 frames for 2.0 attack speed and 25 frames for Echoing Fury bonus. Nevertheless, attacks were sometimes coming a frame faster, at 24 frames (the rest were 25)! Even more confusing, it always seemed to be the rare Demolisher, not the Echoing Fury!

    The best possible explanation I can figure is:
    • Echoing Fury's APS bonus has more significant digits that are hidden by the interface. For example, I may have had a +0.243 aps Fury. (It's possible that something like 0.237 aps would round on the display to 0.24, and you could be getting a hidden penalty instead of a bonus.)
    • Whatever additional, hidden bonus I had was such that the skipped frame was always on the same weapon.

    In such a case, things would still fall under expectation #1; however, that's speculation. Truth is, I am not sure of the mathematical model to explain this. It could be very complicated. I didn't post anything yet because I wanted to figure it out first, but it's exhausting and I'm giving up on it.

    In any case, yes, Echoing Fury effects weapon speed with both hands, and Crunchy's explanation of how it works is very close to how it actually works (within a 2% or so margin of error).

  6. #26
    IncGamers Member SparkFour's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    So have we come to a conclusion as to what is the best all around set up / bang for your buck?

  7. #27
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    That is an impressive amount of calulations and information. I've been trying to write my own Python script to automatically collect a sample of messages from between the D3 client and the server to try to figure out where the damage information is and then back-calculate a bunch of handy info like this. How exactly did you arrive at such exact numbers? And how did you capture all of the damage output? Last I remember the damage numbers go flying by as kinda in-game graphics, I didn't think they were logged anyplace but I get the feeling I'm wrong about that. Great work!

    Edit (spelling and more info): Personally I find that the combination of Sprint(run like the wind) / Whirlwind (tornado) with Warcry (impunity) and Battle rage (into the fray) buffs give me the most damage numbers, and for my last 2 slots I use Rend (bloodlust) to give me back a ton of life while fighting, Wrath of the Berzerker for elite encounters. I love how you don't have to use any basic attack at all. Screw cleave/frenzy whatever. It's a wasted slot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    Amazed this post has zero replies. Apparently no one followed the link; for those who haven't, he uses the same mainhand weapon and three different offhand weapons, a 1059.6 dps with 1.3 aps, a 225.6 dps with 1.66aps, and a 14.4 dps with 1.44 aps... and they all kill MP10 Azmodan within 3 seconds of each other.

    Although the results seem surprising, they shouldn't. We've actually had all the information we needed here and here. Key information is:
    1) Run Like the Wind tornadoes always do 20% mainhand weapon damage per tick.
    2) Run Like the Wind tornadoes scale with attack speed, using the previous weapon's attack speed to determine tick frequency.
    3) You can have 4 Run Like the Wind tornadoes active at a time; as the 5th spawns, the 1st dies. (You get less tornadoes than this if you spam Sprint, with best results if you reactivate Sprint just as its duration expires.)
    4) Whirlwind does 48.33% current weapon damage per tick, using the current attack speed, but otherwise scales with attack speed the same as Run Like the Wind.
    5) Just to state the obvious, when dual-wielding you generally alternate hands. The mainhand swings, then the offhand, then the mainhand, et cetera.

    So let's say I have a 1.2aps mainhand and a 1.66aps offhand. That means that 58% of the time I'm swinging with my mainhand and 42% of the time I'm swinging with my offhand; this is because my offhand is much faster and therefore gets its turn done faster. So even if I was using a Bash build, the mainhand DPS would count more than the offhand DPS by almost a 3:2 ratio. For Whirlwind, which uses current weapon damage and speed, this is exactly the case.

    However, Run Like the Wind has very odd mechanics. First off, it always uses the mainhand damage; second, it always uses the previously used weapon's attack speed. So if I'm random about when I activate Sprint, 58% of the time the tornadoes will tick 38% more often. That means that just by using the 1.2/1.66 dual-wield combo, my Sprint tornadoes will do 22% more damage.

    Lastly, the majority of the Whirlwind barb's damage isn't from Whirlwind, but from Run Like the Wind. Four tornadoes ticking for 20% is 80% weapon damage; one whirlwind tick is 48.33%. That means that Run Like the Wind provides 62% of the total real DPS, while Whirlwind accounts for the other 38%... but that's before the 22% increase from the dual-wield combo, which brings the ratio to more like 69% to 31%.

    Now, remember that all of that 69% is mainhand damage, and only 42% of that 31% is off-hand damage. When all is said and done, only 13.88% of a 1.2/1.66 barbarian's real DPS is based on off-hand DPS; a whopping 86.12% is based off main-hand damage.

    So the current math explains the video's results perfectly: All results are pretty close because the mainhand DPS is more than 6 times as important as the offhand DPS. 86% of 1211.7 + 14% of 1059.6 = 1190.41; with 14% of 225.6, = 1073.65; with 14% of 14.4, = 1044.08. The rest is explained by Run Like the Wind mechanics; the 1.66 dagger received the biggest boost, allowing it to perform best, while the 14.4dps weapon still had more aps than the 1059.6 and therefore came close to tying it.

    EDIT: ON ECHOING FURY
    I didn't notice Echoing Fury was the mainhand when writing the above, which changes the math a little.

    I'm not saying Echoing Fury is unusable, but it's severely overrated and definitely looks better on paper than it works in practice. With 1.43/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.554aps; with a 1.2/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.467aps (both before off-weapon attack speed boosts). That's a boost, but it's just under 6% faster. Whirlwind would tick 10% faster, but would factor in the offhand more (46.3%), which with the 225.6dps dagger would only give 4.2% more real DPS overall. When all is said and done, a 1.2aps, 1060dps mace (that is otherwise identical) would do the same amount of real DPS.

    In terms of general Fury management, you'd be ahead too. The total results would be that you'd get 6% less Sprint procs, 10% less Whirlwind procs, and spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. Since 71% of your procs are from Sprint (4 tornadoes at 0.08 = 0.32 vs 0.13 from Whirlwind), you'd proc 7.2% slower overall but spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. With 2.12aps with Echoing Fury on deck, you apparently have 48% attack speed from gear, which means 73% after WotB, which gives you 2.48 aps main and 2.87 aps with a 1.66 off-hand, for a net APS of 2.66, which means you're currently spending 79.8 Fury per 3 seconds, for a total Fury cost of 99.8 per 3 seconds. Saving 10% on your Whirlwinds would bring you to 91.8 Fury per 3 seconds, which is a 8% reduction in costs, making up for the 7.2% reduction in procs.

    The one downside would be Thrive on Chaos; with 8% lower costs and 7.2% less procs, each second of fighting at full DPS would extend the duration less. For fights like MP10 Azmodan, this is irrelevant as you'd still be spending and gaining more than 30 Fury per second, but for MF runs where there are stretches of empty ground it might be relevant.

    Nevertheless, my conclusion is that 1211.7 Echoing Fury < 1090 rare mace. Hope you didn't waste too much money on that sucker.

  8. #28
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    So what's the general consensus?

    Highest DPS MH (or highest range?)
    fast / EF offhand full of stats not prioritizing DPS?

  9. #29
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyrOz View Post
    So what's the general consensus?

    Highest DPS MH (or highest range?)
    fast / EF offhand full of stats not prioritizing DPS?
    Yes--biggest raw damage numbers on main hand (not dps); fast stats on offhand. I personally use a dagger instead of EF, but it's not cheap to get a dagger with leech, crit damage, strength, attack speed and a socket.

  10. #30
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    Yes--biggest raw damage numbers on main hand (not dps); fast stats on offhand. I personally use a dagger instead of EF, but it's not cheap to get a dagger with leech, crit damage, strength, attack speed and a socket.
    An interesting observation I had - I use EF offhand while a friend uses it MH and his nados proc fear while mine don't.

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