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  1. #1
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    WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    I'm sure we all know OH DPS doesn't matter as much on a WW/Tornado Barb, but I was quite amazed when I tested this theory with different weapons, and I just thought I would like to share the results.


    The tests are not conducted under the strictest conditions but should give a rough idea just what is more important, AS or weapon DPS.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LOKziMx2g

  2. #2
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Amazed this post has zero replies. Apparently no one followed the link; for those who haven't, he uses the same mainhand weapon and three different offhand weapons, a 1059.6 dps with 1.3 aps, a 225.6 dps with 1.66aps, and a 14.4 dps with 1.44 aps... and they all kill MP10 Azmodan within 3 seconds of each other.

    Although the results seem surprising, they shouldn't. We've actually had all the information we needed here and here. Key information is:
    1) Run Like the Wind tornadoes always do 20% mainhand weapon damage per tick.
    2) Run Like the Wind tornadoes scale with attack speed, using the previous weapon's attack speed to determine tick frequency.
    3) You can have 4 Run Like the Wind tornadoes active at a time; as the 5th spawns, the 1st dies. (You get less tornadoes than this if you spam Sprint, with best results if you reactivate Sprint just as its duration expires.)
    4) Whirlwind does 48.33% current weapon damage per tick, using the current attack speed, but otherwise scales with attack speed the same as Run Like the Wind.
    5) Just to state the obvious, when dual-wielding you generally alternate hands. The mainhand swings, then the offhand, then the mainhand, et cetera.

    So let's say I have a 1.2aps mainhand and a 1.66aps offhand. That means that 58% of the time I'm swinging with my mainhand and 42% of the time I'm swinging with my offhand; this is because my offhand is much faster and therefore gets its turn done faster. So even if I was using a Bash build, the mainhand DPS would count more than the offhand DPS by almost a 3:2 ratio. For Whirlwind, which uses current weapon damage and speed, this is exactly the case.

    However, Run Like the Wind has very odd mechanics. First off, it always uses the mainhand damage; second, it always uses the previously used weapon's attack speed. So if I'm random about when I activate Sprint, 58% of the time the tornadoes will tick 38% more often. That means that just by using the 1.2/1.66 dual-wield combo, my Sprint tornadoes will do 22% more damage.

    Lastly, the majority of the Whirlwind barb's damage isn't from Whirlwind, but from Run Like the Wind. Four tornadoes ticking for 20% is 80% weapon damage; one whirlwind tick is 48.33%. That means that Run Like the Wind provides 62% of the total real DPS, while Whirlwind accounts for the other 38%... but that's before the 22% increase from the dual-wield combo, which brings the ratio to more like 69% to 31%.

    Now, remember that all of that 69% is mainhand damage, and only 42% of that 31% is off-hand damage. When all is said and done, only 13.88% of a 1.2/1.66 barbarian's real DPS is based on off-hand DPS; a whopping 86.12% is based off main-hand damage.

    So the current math explains the video's results perfectly: All results are pretty close because the mainhand DPS is more than 6 times as important as the offhand DPS. 86% of 1211.7 + 14% of 1059.6 = 1190.41; with 14% of 225.6, = 1073.65; with 14% of 14.4, = 1044.08. The rest is explained by Run Like the Wind mechanics; the 1.66 dagger received the biggest boost, allowing it to perform best, while the 14.4dps weapon still had more aps than the 1059.6 and therefore came close to tying it.

    EDIT: ON ECHOING FURY
    I didn't notice Echoing Fury was the mainhand when writing the above, which changes the math a little.

    I'm not saying Echoing Fury is unusable, but it's severely overrated and definitely looks better on paper than it works in practice. With 1.43/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.554aps; with a 1.2/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.467aps (both before off-weapon attack speed boosts). That's a boost, but it's just under 6% faster. Whirlwind would tick 10% faster, but would factor in the offhand more (46.3%), which with the 225.6dps dagger would only give 4.2% more real DPS overall. When all is said and done, a 1.2aps, 1060dps mace (that is otherwise identical) would do the same amount of real DPS.

    In terms of general Fury management, you'd be ahead too. The total results would be that you'd get 6% less Sprint procs, 10% less Whirlwind procs, and spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. Since 71% of your procs are from Sprint (4 tornadoes at 0.08 = 0.32 vs 0.13 from Whirlwind), you'd proc 7.2% slower overall but spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. With 2.12aps with Echoing Fury on deck, you apparently have 48% attack speed from gear, which means 73% after WotB, which gives you 2.48 aps main and 2.87 aps with a 1.66 off-hand, for a net APS of 2.66, which means you're currently spending 79.8 Fury per 3 seconds, for a total Fury cost of 99.8 per 3 seconds. Saving 10% on your Whirlwinds would bring you to 91.8 Fury per 3 seconds, which is a 8% reduction in costs, making up for the 7.2% reduction in procs.

    The one downside would be Thrive on Chaos; with 8% lower costs and 7.2% less procs, each second of fighting at full DPS would extend the duration less. For fights like MP10 Azmodan, this is irrelevant as you'd still be spending and gaining more than 30 Fury per second, but for MF runs where there are stretches of empty ground it might be relevant.

    Nevertheless, my conclusion is that 1211.7 Echoing Fury < 1090 rare mace. Hope you didn't waste too much money on that sucker.
    Last edited by Dethklok; 29-11-2012 at 23:50.

  3. #3
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    So in conclusion, 1211.7 Echoing Fury < 1090 rare mace. Hope you didn't waste too much money on that sucker.
    On the other hand, Echoing Fury as an offhand has definite merits. +.25 attacks per second, a socket, strength, and life steal or critical hit damage (take your pick) without having to pay dearly for one with 1100+ dps. If you're using a mace in your main hand, it also makes it whirlwind and sprint tornado attack speed breakpoints less complicated; you'll hit the same breakpoint with both weapons.

  4. #4
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    There's some feedback in the news item on this from yesterday.

    http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...e-a-toothbrush
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  5. #5
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Karth View Post
    On the other hand, Echoing Fury as an offhand has definite merits. +.25 attacks per second, a socket, strength, and life steal or critical hit damage (take your pick) without having to pay dearly for one with 1100+ dps. If you're using a mace in your main hand, it also makes it whirlwind and sprint tornado attack speed breakpoints less complicated; you'll hit the same breakpoint with both weapons.
    Maybe as a budget option. You want insane aps, which admittedly Fury can do with top speeds of 1.68aps... but you also want life leech, crit damage, and socketed, and Fury doesn't have enough random mods for that. An attack-speed Fury is solid offhand but nowhere near best-in-slot.

    (If you haven't figured it out yet, the only thing legendary weapons are good for is gimmicky stuff like fear/knockback/freeze, in terms of pure DPS or farming a rare is BiS for every single build of every single class. Except Chantodo's Wand, it's actually fastest option for Wizard. Maybe one or two will make it in PvP, that's about it.)
    Last edited by Dethklok; 30-11-2012 at 00:31.

  6. #6
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    Maybe as a budget option. You want insane aps, which admittedly Fury can do with top speeds of 1.68aps... but you also want life leech, crit damage, and socketed, and Fury doesn't have enough random mods for that. An attack-speed Fury is solid offhand but nowhere near best-in-slot.

    (If you haven't figured it out yet, the only thing legendary weapons are good for is gimmicky stuff like fear/knockback/freeze, in terms of pure DPS or farming a rare is BiS for every single build of every single class. Except Chantodo's Wand, it's actually fastest option for Wizard. Maybe one or two will make it in PvP, that's about it.)
    In the 50 to 200 million gold range, a ~860 dps, ~165 strength, socketed, 3% life steal, +.25 aps EF was better for my actual applied dps than any dagger or sword available. For comparison, my previous offhand was a 194% crit damage ~680 dps dagger with 1.5 aps. I think in the calculator I gained ~20% applied dps. This may or may not be because my other gear isn't fantastic enough to make that extra 90-100 crit damage as important as +.25 aps, or because a good enough dagger was overpriced or not available, but I don't think I'd call it a budget option unless you compare 60 million gold (what I paid at auction) with the cost of most of the rest of my gear (significantly more per piece).

  7. #7
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Karth View Post
    In the 50 to 200 million gold range, a ~860 dps, ~165 strength, socketed, 3% life steal, +.25 aps EF was better for my actual applied dps than any dagger or sword available. For comparison, my previous offhand was a 194% crit damage ~680 dps dagger with 1.5 aps. I think in the calculator I gained ~20% applied dps.
    You have a lot of faith in your calculator. Link it and I'll vet it for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karth View Post
    This may or may not be because my other gear isn't fantastic enough to make that extra 90-100 crit damage as important as +.25 aps, or because a good enough dagger was overpriced or not available, but I don't think I'd call it a budget option unless you compare 60 million gold (what I paid at auction) with the cost of most of the rest of my gear (significantly more per piece).
    First off, you're dropping 60mil gold on weapons, so if you don't have very high crit, you're doing it wrong. Always prioritize resource management first — monster health and damage are variables you can MP level your way out of, but Fury per second isn't. For Barbarians, Into the Fray is your primary generator, so crit chance first, everything else second. Maybe you should be dropping 60mil on a helmet or a ring or bracers or gloves.

    Second, what I meant was it should be a budget option. It isn't — it's heinously overpriced. Like an overvalued stock, my current advice is "do not purchase." If and when it actually becomes a budget option... well, by then you'll probably be in the good gear department and the point will be moot. If you currently have one... sell it while it's still worth something. It does do a fantastic job at stat-sheet illusion weaving, and even with me crying like Chicken Little it'll take months, or at least weeks, before the price drops significantly (other than general inflation). Unload now.

  8. #8
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    http://www.d3rawr.com/d

    I don't know where you're getting that I don't have high crit chance. I do. Or rather, it is high enough to be functional and I've spread out to hunting other things, as crit chance is not the optimal way for me to increase my dps at the moment.

    Edit: perhaps I didn't state it very clearly. At 60 million gold, my EF is my third-cheapest piece of gear at the moment. Only my cold damage SoJ (30%, wizard skills) and my rare helm (str/socket/809 armor/60 all res/5% ctc/enough mf to put me at max with my templar and paragon) were cheaper, even counting 1d12hr purchases and auctions won while the servers were offline. It is a fairly 'budget' option compared to the rest of my gear, but I was unable to find anything that provided more applied dps in the calculator I used.

  9. #9
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Karth View Post
    If you tell it you have a 1.2aps, 1000dps weapon mainhand and a 1.5aps, 0dps weapon offhand, it tells you that your offhand Run Like the Wind ticks do zero damage. Therefore, it thinks that offhand DPS has something to do with RLtW damage (it doesn't). If it's that far off on RLtW, which is a majority of your real DPS, I'm sorry but it's crap.

  10. #10
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    Re: WW/Tornado Barb OH Weapon Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    Amazed this post has zero replies. Apparently no one followed the link; for those who haven't, he uses the same mainhand weapon and three different offhand weapons, a 1059.6 dps with 1.3 aps, a 225.6 dps with 1.66aps, and a 14.4 dps with 1.44 aps... and they all kill MP10 Azmodan within 3 seconds of each other.

    Although the results seem surprising, they shouldn't. We've actually had all the information we needed here and here. Key information is:
    1) Run Like the Wind tornadoes always do 20% mainhand weapon damage per tick.
    2) Run Like the Wind tornadoes scale with attack speed, using the previous weapon's attack speed to determine tick frequency.
    3) You can have 4 Run Like the Wind tornadoes active at a time; as the 5th spawns, the 1st dies. (You get less tornadoes than this if you spam Sprint, with best results if you reactivate Sprint just as its duration expires.)
    4) Whirlwind does 48.33% current weapon damage per tick, using the current attack speed, but otherwise scales with attack speed the same as Run Like the Wind.
    5) Just to state the obvious, when dual-wielding you generally alternate hands. The mainhand swings, then the offhand, then the mainhand, et cetera.

    So let's say I have a 1.2aps mainhand and a 1.66aps offhand. That means that 58% of the time I'm swinging with my mainhand and 42% of the time I'm swinging with my offhand; this is because my offhand is much faster and therefore gets its turn done faster. So even if I was using a Bash build, the mainhand DPS would count more than the offhand DPS by almost a 3:2 ratio. For Whirlwind, which uses current weapon damage and speed, this is exactly the case.

    However, Run Like the Wind has very odd mechanics. First off, it always uses the mainhand damage; second, it always uses the previously used weapon's attack speed. So if I'm random about when I activate Sprint, 58% of the time the tornadoes will tick 38% more often. That means that just by using the 1.2/1.66 dual-wield combo, my Sprint tornadoes will do 22% more damage.

    Lastly, the majority of the Whirlwind barb's damage isn't from Whirlwind, but from Run Like the Wind. Four tornadoes ticking for 20% is 80% weapon damage; one whirlwind tick is 48.33%. That means that Run Like the Wind provides 62% of the total real DPS, while Whirlwind accounts for the other 38%... but that's before the 22% increase from the dual-wield combo, which brings the ratio to more like 69% to 31%.

    Now, remember that all of that 69% is mainhand damage, and only 42% of that 31% is off-hand damage. When all is said and done, only 13.88% of a 1.2/1.66 barbarian's real DPS is based on off-hand DPS; a whopping 86.12% is based off main-hand damage.

    So the current math explains the video's results perfectly: All results are pretty close because the mainhand DPS is more than 6 times as important as the offhand DPS. 86% of 1211.7 + 14% of 1059.6 = 1190.41; with 14% of 225.6, = 1073.65; with 14% of 14.4, = 1044.08. The rest is explained by Run Like the Wind mechanics; the 1.66 dagger received the biggest boost, allowing it to perform best, while the 14.4dps weapon still had more aps than the 1059.6 and therefore came close to tying it.

    EDIT: ON ECHOING FURY
    I didn't notice Echoing Fury was the mainhand when writing the above, which changes the math a little.

    I'm not saying Echoing Fury is unusable, but it's severely overrated and definitely looks better on paper than it works in practice. With 1.43/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.554aps; with a 1.2/1.66 combo, average tornado tick speed is 1.467aps (both before off-weapon attack speed boosts). That's a boost, but it's just under 6% faster. Whirlwind would tick 10% faster, but would factor in the offhand more (46.3%), which with the 225.6dps dagger would only give 4.2% more real DPS overall. When all is said and done, a 1.2aps, 1060dps mace (that is otherwise identical) would do the same amount of real DPS.

    In terms of general Fury management, you'd be ahead too. The total results would be that you'd get 6% less Sprint procs, 10% less Whirlwind procs, and spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. Since 71% of your procs are from Sprint (4 tornadoes at 0.08 = 0.32 vs 0.13 from Whirlwind), you'd proc 7.2% slower overall but spend 10% less Fury on Whirlwind. With 2.12aps with Echoing Fury on deck, you apparently have 48% attack speed from gear, which means 73% after WotB, which gives you 2.48 aps main and 2.87 aps with a 1.66 off-hand, for a net APS of 2.66, which means you're currently spending 79.8 Fury per 3 seconds, for a total Fury cost of 99.8 per 3 seconds. Saving 10% on your Whirlwinds would bring you to 91.8 Fury per 3 seconds, which is a 8% reduction in costs, making up for the 7.2% reduction in procs.

    The one downside would be Thrive on Chaos; with 8% lower costs and 7.2% less procs, each second of fighting at full DPS would extend the duration less. For fights like MP10 Azmodan, this is irrelevant as you'd still be spending and gaining more than 30 Fury per second, but for MF runs where there are stretches of empty ground it might be relevant.

    Nevertheless, my conclusion is that 1211.7 Echoing Fury < 1090 rare mace. Hope you didn't waste too much money on that sucker.
    Here's the conundrum for your math: if offhand damage matters AT ALL, we should see some sort of spread between the weapons' killing times. You've got ~a 10% spread in the weapon dps but no spread in killing speed. I haven't bothered to crunch through all the number, but I'm not convinced that rltw explains away all the spread. The chance that the dps difference is exactly offset by the AS speed difference would be pretty coincidental. I think to know for certain we'd need to see a variety of dps weapons with the same attack speed. In fact, a good test would probably be a low dps mainhand with a variety of same speed dps offhands.

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