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  1. #51
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    BTW, I love the way you think that $90M is chump change. Makes me feel lots better about surfing the Interwebz while I'm at work. Or, as your heroine would ask, "What difference at this point does it make?"
    I have proposed/supported several ideas on what we can do to reign in spending. They come from both sides of the aisle, and would be far more substantial. It's just another example of you seeing trees and not the forest. Complaining about illegals is how they get people riled up (they took ar jerbs!), without having to fix anything.

  2. #52
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    It's just another example of you seeing trees and not the forest. Complaining about illegals is how they get people riled up (they took ar jerbs!), without having to fix anything.
    It would be extremely simple and effective, which is why I'm laughing at you. When there's already consideration of denying life-saving services to overweight people and smokers in the English precursor to Obamacare, why are we still providing it to people who are both actively breaking the law and aren't part of the population?

    Incidentally, calling me racist is even more asinine of you. Thanks! It helps keep me convinced of my opinion. We don't even have enough children to continue support for behemoth welfare state you adore; there's every reason to allow aliens as guest workers as they always used to be - but of course, if you don't grant shamnesty then they can't support your Party.

  3. #53
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    It would be extremely simple and effective, which is why I'm laughing at you. When there's already consideration of denying life-saving services to overweight people and smokers in the English precursor to Obamacare, why are we still providing it to people who are both actively breaking the law and aren't part of the population?

    Incidentally, calling me racist is even more asinine of you. Thanks! It helps keep me convinced of my opinion. We don't even have enough children to continue support for behemoth welfare state you adore; there's every reason to allow aliens as guest workers as they always used to be - but of course, if you don't grant shamnesty then they can't support your Party.
    oh come on Jmerv. You're not a real racist. you just sound like one on the intarwebs sometimes.

    Seriously, though, you brought up race, not me. don't pin that on me.

    Anyway, you can't take away citizenship from people because you don't like their parents.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourtee...s_Constitution

    And don't give me crap like the "welfare state you adore", when one thread over I was proposing cuts you wouldn't agree to.

  4. #54
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    oh come on Jmerv. You're not a real racist. you just sound like one on the intarwebs sometimes.
    I'm pointing out how unbelievably stupid you sound saying such things - doubtless you'll be calling me a porch monkey or Uncle Tom soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Seriously, though, you brought up race, not me. don't pin that on me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Complaining about illegals is how they get people riled up (they took ar jerbs!), without having to fix anything.
    The thumbtack is stuck so deep in your chest, I'm surprised it didn't make your heart palpitate. Unless it did. You hypocrite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Anyway, you can't take away citizenship from people because you don't like their parents.
    Do some research, son. You're cheering for continuing the illegal exploitation of a loophole, not following the 'law of the land'.

    EDIT - Since you're unclear on what constitutes "research", that doesn't mean read Wikipedia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    And don't give me crap like the "welfare state you adore", when one thread over I was proposing cuts you wouldn't agree to.
    So if you suggest that if I flap my arms hard I can fly to Mars, and I call you an idiot for such a suggestion, that means I'm against space exploration?


  5. #55
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    I'm pointing out how unbelievably stupid you sound saying such things - doubtless you'll be calling me a porch monkey or Uncle Tom soon.
    I would never use such terms, all i wondered was how you knew the emergency room was full of illegals. Lighten up. Besides, it doesn't matter what color your are, you're still usually wrong.

    Reminded me of this...
    http://cms.m1is.com/video.aspx?mid=d...c-85efcd4182f2
    Careful, that link is definitely NSFW, due to language

    The thumbtack is stuck so deep in your chest, I'm surprised it didn't make your heart palpitate. Unless it did. You hypocrite.
    Do some research, son. You're cheering for continuing the illegal exploitation of a loophole, not following the 'law of the land'.
    There's cheering, and there's realizing that you're up against the 14th amendment. Sometimes things that are not ideal must be tolerated to protect larger ideals. I think the ideal of all citizens being treated equally is more important than the very tiny amount of money that goes to illegals. I would support efforts to close the loophole, but I don't think you can in the food stamp instance. I certainly haven't heard anything acceptable. Repealing the 14th amendment would NOT be acceptable.

    My idea of allowing illegals to pay taxes but still not be able to apply for benefits until they were through the citizenship process would help defray those costs. In fact, that may actually generate more revenue than they cost. 90MM divided by 40MM illegals is $2.25 each. Even if only a third of them work, they should be able to cover that if they work legally.

    So there ARE options. We don't have the money or the resources to stop them from coming here or toss them out, but we can try to make a bit back on them while they work to become citizens, and make those that don't like the rules self-deport by making it hard on them to stay out of the system. It's giving them the carrot and the stick. I just think the stick by itself won't work.

    BTW - Romney was the guy who said "self-deport" if you've forgotten.




    EDIT - Since you're unclear on what constitutes "research", that doesn't mean read Wikipedia.
    I'm not sure what that link was supposed to teach me. I was already aware that people were peeved with illegal immigrants.



    So if you suggest that if I flap my arms hard I can fly to Mars, and I call you an idiot for such a suggestion, that means I'm against space exploration?
    wut?

    I'm not familiar with your physique, but no, I'm fairly confident you can't fly (I'd have seen it on youtube by now). back to the point, you can't say I "adore" welfare programs in any serious way when you said in another thread you would not support implementing the large deductibles, death panels, means testing, and other ideas I forth to severely limit the size and scope of our entitlement systems.

    Frankly, if my healthcare plan (or list of suggestions) was in effect, people would have permanent insurance that was detangled from employment and we could toss the medicare system completely and have more funds for medicaid (which is a social safety net I do agree with).

    In fact, if we lived in the "Stevination" (short e), there would be significantly less entitlements (but much better designed ones) than in JMervtopia (where iirc you would replace everything with vouchers and private accounts, but not address the systemic issue of these programs not being funded").

    You don't get it both ways buddy. We're not broke because of illegal aliens. we're broke because there's too many old people and not enough young people. Even if the kids did find jobs, there's not enough of them, and there's not enough economic benefit to underwater basketweaving and coding facebook aps to support the old people. THAT'S the problem. The solution is actually kind of simple. You can payout less to old people, or you can get more people to pay more taxes (or both). I say why not do both. Pay the old people less, and find people who aren't paying taxes, and figure out how to get the to start. Give illegals TINs, stop with the negative tax rates, have unemployment taper off, etc etc etc. Do you start to see how there's a theme over my many posts in many many threads? Don't trust either party, tailor your solutions to the actual problems and one sides dumb ideology.


    As for your pic, I don't understand the reference. It seems like you're calling me a progressive, but I think you're ignoring that the progressives would never back what I've been saying, because they are also partisan hacks like yourself, so everytime you call me that it just reinforces that you're not reading my posts, but instead arguing against someone who doesn't exist. It's so old and tired of a strategy, it's kind of embarassing for you.

  6. #56
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Lighten up. Besides, it doesn't matter what color your are, you're still usually wrong.
    So I shouldn't call you a racist, as you just called me? I'm confused.

    "Lighten up."?!?!!
    Spoiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Careful, that link is definitely NSFW, due to language
    Why I won't click it, at least here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Repealing the 14th amendment would NOT be acceptable.
    There's no need for repeal; the loophole is that by being here illegally, such people have no right to have their child considered a citizen. It would apply to everyone who's a wetback, who's overstayed their visas, and depending on how the visa situation was framed would apply to everyone who's "just visiting". The end result would be that only children of bona-fide Guest Workers would be auto-citizens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    In fact, that may actually generate more revenue than they cost. 90MM divided by 40MM illegals is $2.25 each. Even if only a third of them work, they should be able to cover that if they work legally.
    Such math is bogus, no matter how often used by the Left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I just think the stick by itself won't work.

    BTW - Romney was the guy who said "self-deport" if you've forgotten.
    Where I DO know that the stick by itself will work, and works remarkably well. Gavin McInnes (himself a Canadian with a work permit) was on RedEye recently and got into a heated discussion about just how banal and easy the solution actually is. All that needs to happen is tightening up on the employers getting a free ride off what is essentially slave labor. Glenn Beck made the same analogy to slavery more than once on his show; illegals are indeed "self-deporting" in mass numbers because of our economic downturn. Combine that with improvement to American incarceration, where we're not footing the bill for vile scum who never had allegiance to our country's social compact (or humanity's, in many cases) and the problem immediately deflates to the sort of non-issue it was when I was a child. THEY COME HERE FOR FREE STUFF, not for work, and THE DEMOCRAT PARTY WANTS TO SHOWER THEM WITH FREE STUFF FOR THEIR VOTES.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I'm not sure what that link was supposed to teach me. I was already aware that people were peeved with illegal immigrants.
    It's a reminder that quoting Wikipedia --> Buffoon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    back to the point, you can't say I "adore" welfare programs in any serious way when you said in another thread you would not support implementing the large deductibles, death panels, means testing, and other ideas I forth to severely limit the size and scope of our entitlement systems.
    You really made no sense here, but attempting to sift out some meaning, you generally follow the Progressive ideology of "one more regulation and we're living in Paradise", while I generally reject that thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    In fact, if we lived in the "Stevination" (short e), there would be significantly less entitlements (but much better designed ones) than in JMervtopia (where iirc you would replace everything with vouchers and private accounts, but not address the systemic issue of these programs not being funded").
    The vanity of your belief is its undoing. You assume that you (or, the really smart guys in charge) will make the best decisions and thus create the best system. Time and time again that has resulted in failure, if not disaster. The reason I can always stamp "PROGRESSIVE" in big, bloody letters on your forehead is that you continue failing to understand the positive nature of capitalism versus the negative nature of Progressive beliefs (communism, socialism, fascism). Capitalism puts the decision-making power ALONG WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY in the hands of the individual to the greatest extent possible, while Progressive beliefs are all about confiscating the resultant freedoms to the greatest extent possible, in the name of equality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    You don't get it both ways buddy. We're not broke because of illegal aliens.
    Which is obviously why so many hospitals are going bankrupt and shutting down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    we're broke because there's too many old people and not enough young people. Even if the kids did find jobs, there's not enough of them, and there's not enough economic benefit to underwater basketweaving and coding facebook aps to support the old people. THAT'S the problem.
    McInnes touched that as well - the reason they don't have jobs is BECAUSE THE ILLEGALS CAN, and at less money. It may not be a warm, cozy truth but the companies aren't going to hire a whiny little snot-nose whose idea of importance is PK'ing a n00b when they can hire a slave that they don't even have to worry about providing health care for.
    • The Progressive solution, as should be obvious from ongoing discussions, is to provide health care to the slave.
    • The Libertarian solution is to remove the slave's status, though there's disagreement on whether that means erasing the border & citizenship, or yanking the carpet out from under the snot-nose's comfy existence.
    • The Conservative solution definitely endorses both cracking down on the slave state, and at the same time discomfiting snot-nose.
    • The Republican solution, obviously, is the one that doesn't work - eradicating the slave. More will come, and snot-nose still will toss his parents in the retirement home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    The solution is actually kind of simple. You can payout less to old people, or you can get more people to pay more taxes (or both).
    The "solution" will be both, but it won't work. The payout to old people will continue to creep, metastasize, and corrupt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Do you start to see how there's a theme over my many posts in many many threads? Don't trust either party, tailor your solutions to the actual problems and one sides dumb ideology.
    I'd seen the theme long ago, and what you don't get is that your solutions are what used to be considered "moderate Liberal". They still don't work, and never would; they were mainstream for these many years (I used to be there) but the merry-go-round ran out of gas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    It seems like you're calling me a progressive, but I think you're ignoring that the progressives would never back what I've been saying, because they are also partisan hacks like yourself,
    Progressive is a mindset, not a political belief. Significant numbers of Democrats are now Progressives, but the GOP you feverishly imagine ALSO used to Progressive in nature (back in the 1950's IIRC).
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    It's so old and tired of a strategy, it's kind of embarassing for you.
    The truth is never tired or embarrassing, though obviously you think it gets old. Even IF Stevination was viable, the number of Progressives with much harder beliefs would still distort the system to the point of overload. Do you really think that the New Deal was designed to NOT work? The underlying theme remains: belief that putting a bunch of "smart" guys in charge of your life always fails in the end.

  7. #57
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    So I shouldn't call you a racist, as you just called me? I'm confused.

    "Lighten up."?!?!!
    Spoiler
    I'm sure it'll fall flat like most everything else you've called me. Racist might not even be the worst, though it would certainly not be the most creative, or the most amusing.

    Why I won't click it, at least here.
    I know you read from work, so I'll give you the once over. It's the chapelle show clip where he plays a blind guy who's a white supremacist. Chapelle is black, and in one scene he calls some white kids listening to rap in their car the N word.


    There's no need for repeal; the loophole is that by being here illegally, such people have no right to have their child considered a citizen. It would apply to everyone who's a wetback, who's overstayed their visas, and depending on how the visa situation was framed would apply to everyone who's "just visiting". The end result would be that only children of bona-fide Guest Workers would be auto-citizens.
    How would we verify the parent's are legal?

    Such math is bogus, no matter how often used by the Left.
    I didn't get that from anywhere, I just divided 90MM by 40MM. Either way, they are here, they're not leaving so it only makes sense to get them paying into the system.

    Where I DO know that the stick by itself will work, and works remarkably well. Gavin McInnes (himself a Canadian with a work permit) was on RedEye recently and got into a heated discussion about just how banal and easy the solution actually is. All that needs to happen is tightening up on the employers getting a free ride off what is essentially slave labor. Glenn Beck made the same analogy to slavery more than once on his show; illegals are indeed "self-deporting" in mass numbers because of our economic downturn. Combine that with improvement to American incarceration, where we're not footing the bill for vile scum who never had allegiance to our country's social compact (or humanity's, in many cases) and the problem immediately deflates to the sort of non-issue it was when I was a child. THEY COME HERE FOR FREE STUFF, not for work, and THE DEMOCRAT PARTY WANTS TO SHOWER THEM WITH FREE STUFF FOR THEIR VOTES.
    I'm all for cracking down on black market employers. And, I even am fine with taking steps to make sure they (the illegals) don't vote. This is a separate issue but it boggles my mind how so many people can not have IDs (from the voter ID law discussion).

    You really made no sense here, but attempting to sift out some meaning, you generally follow the Progressive ideology of "one more regulation and we're living in Paradise", while I generally reject that thinking.
    In another thread you said you would not support death panels and a handful of other adjustments to the entitlement system, i suspect the only reason you said that is because you didn't want to agree with me. in a vacuum, I'm sure you'd like to reduce our entitlements. Anyway, aside from the word "forth" not fitting in the sentence, I meant exactly that. It's ludicrious that you would accuse me of "adoring" entitlements that I have several times suggested cutting.

    The vanity of your belief is its undoing. You assume that you (or, the really smart guys in charge) will make the best decisions and thus create the best system. Time and time again that has resulted in failure, if not disaster. The reason I can always stamp "PROGRESSIVE" in big, bloody letters on your forehead is that you continue failing to understand the positive nature of capitalism versus the negative nature of Progressive beliefs (communism, socialism, fascism). Capitalism puts the decision-making power ALONG WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY in the hands of the individual to the greatest extent possible, while Progressive beliefs are all about confiscating the resultant freedoms to the greatest extent possible, in the name of equality.
    If you take my claim by itself your criticism makes sense, but I ask that you put it in context with the reasons I've said my proposals are better over many many posts. Again you label me progressive, but that doesn't apply. it's a phooey situation.

    i will agree that vouchers for medicare will limit it's cost, but it's not the best way to deal with it.

    McInnes touched that as well - the reason they don't have jobs is BECAUSE THE ILLEGALS CAN, and at less money. It may not be a warm, cozy truth but the companies aren't going to hire a whiny little snot-nose whose idea of importance is PK'ing a n00b when they can hire a slave that they don't even have to worry about providing health care for.

    • The Progressive solution, as should be obvious from ongoing discussions, is to provide health care to the slave.
    • The Libertarian solution is to remove the slave's status, though there's disagreement on whether that means erasing the border & citizenship, or yanking the carpet out from under the snot-nose's comfy existence.
    • The Conservative solution definitely endorses both cracking down on the slave state, and at the same time discomfiting snot-nose.
    • The Republican solution, obviously, is the one that doesn't work - eradicating the slave. More will come, and snot-nose still will toss his parents in the retirement home.
    You can't NOT provide healthcare to illegals. You can make it more difficult for them to access it, we can try to eliminate that loophole that allowed the 90mm, but what are you going to do when they show up at the emergency room with an emergency? Sure the little stuff you can send them to the clinics, but we have to acknowledge that they exist, and find ways to reduce their cost to us. We both want to stop giving them free stuff, I mean, how are we arguing when we're so close? Is it really so terrible to have them paying taxes? i don't see how you can not like this idea, unless you just don't like that it's from me?

    The "solution" will be both, but it won't work. The payout to old people will continue to creep, metastasize, and corrupt.
    unless we cut benefits and make changes to the healthcare system that encourage people to have their own insurance. I know you don't like the sound of "death panels", but i find it out of character for you to be squeamish about cutting entitlements. i think we're closer than you would like to admit. you're just being a turd.

    The truth is never tired or embarrassing, though obviously you think it gets old. Even IF Stevination was viable, the number of Progressives with much harder beliefs would still distort the system to the point of overload. Do you really think that the New Deal was designed to NOT work? The underlying theme remains: belief that putting a bunch of "smart" guys in charge of your life always fails in the end.
    how would Jmervtopia deal with that? Just ditch medicare/aid social security, unemployment etc.? Cuz that's okay if you think that (i mean the political threads are kinda for that...). i don't know why you're so hesitant to commit to a stance. I've said many a times, that i want those programs to be dramatically reduced and reformed, given reasons why, but I never get much more than criticism of what I'm saying.

  8. #58
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I'm sure it'll fall flat like most everything else you've called me. Racist might not even be the worst, though it would certainly not be the most creative, or the most amusing.
    Thing is, as you just did, the Left will throw the label at any and everyone. Coulter's book is basically the history of that, coupled with the cold hard facts about the Democrat history being the true history of American racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    How would we verify the parent's are legal?
    You have to present documentation for a birth certificate, you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I didn't get that from anywhere, I just divided 90MM by 40MM. Either way, they are here, they're not leaving so it only makes sense to get them paying into the system.
    It would make sense, except that the employers are dedicated to NOT having them pay into the system, or get any other equitable treatment. That's why McInnes' point is critical - we ought to attack the employers, not the slaves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I'm all for cracking down on black market employers. And, I even am fine with taking steps to make sure they (the illegals) don't vote. This is a separate issue but it boggles my mind how so many people can not have IDs (from the voter ID law discussion).
    Illegals won't apply for ID because they fear being caught, whereas they are assured (correctly) that they won't be caught voting fraudulently because cops/INS won't be near.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    It's ludicrious that you would accuse me of "adoring" entitlements that I have several times suggested cutting.
    No, my characterization stands. You believe (falsely) that if you can tweak something just right, you can succeed. I believe there's no such thing when put in the hands of higher authority, and all evidence tends my way.

    On money (paraphrase): think of money as an award certificate. Society awards those who it finds useful. How does allowing someone else to decide who your award goes to make sense?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Again you label me progressive, but that doesn't apply. it's a phooey situation.
    Your new-found term doesn't change the truth. No matter how much thought you believe you're putting into the issue, you still are drinking the Kool-Aid; granting your power to the higher authority should never be forced. Again, it's quite hilarious because you seethe with venom when perceiving the Church doing so, but roll over and beg for your tummy to be scratched when it's the fascists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    what are you going to do when they show up at the emergency room with an emergency?
    Give them first aid, and then ask to see the money. If they don't have the money, AND NOBODY PRIVATE will bear their burden, they're out on the street. Cruel? Of course. It also used to be the way things worked for most of history. If you want to point to modern 20th Century gov't as better, then I get to point to the 100M dead aside from all the wars; any time you willingly transfer more power of life or death to your rulers' hands it's a bad thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I mean, how are we arguing when we're so close? Is it really so terrible to have them paying taxes? i don't see how you can not like this idea, unless you just don't like that it's from me?
    Because it still won't work, no matter how finely you try to tune the engine. If you manage to get one result, the side effects are always worse (though often not felt immediately). All you need to do, if you don't want to look at the USSR or China, is look at Europe - particularly France, as the originators of the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    i think we're closer than you would like to admit. you're just being a turd.
    See above. You're not "cutting" entitlements; you're rearranging deck chairs. Flush the entire program.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    how would Jmervtopia deal with that? Just ditch medicare/aid social security, unemployment etc.? Cuz that's okay if you think that (i mean the political threads are kinda for that...). i don't know why you're so hesitant to commit to a stance.
    I'm not hesitant. You're just dismissive. Yes, they all ought to be 'ditched'; the entire "Great Society".

    If a state decides that they want to be stupid enough, let them, but every feckin' one of those programs fails unless bailed out by the Gov't (which is what the stimuli were actually meant to shore up).

    You're still ignorant enough to believe that just because the merry-go-round is turning, it must mean the engine's running just fine. If you suddenly became as clear about the scenario as I am, you would crap your pants. As it is, you'll simply become one of the Fallout 3 raiders or Firefly's Reavers.

    Not that the engine wouldn't run just fine if it wasn't pushing the merry-go-round, filled with ever-increasing numbers of overweight, indolent creatures. For now, though, it's quit and the motion you see is just inertia (AKA Keynesian economics).

  9. #59
    IncGamers Member LozHinge the Unhinged's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    I'd like to become a Firefly Reaver.

    ​*puts hand up*

  10. #60
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: American Homeless people

    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    I'd like to become a Firefly Reaver.

    ​*puts hand up*
    You mean you're not one already?


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