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  1. #21
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Drytchnath View Post
    Would Multi/Suppression Fire used in conjunction with Prep/Punishment be viable for an incredibly poor, undergeared DH in theory?
    Suppression Fire is generally much worse on resources than Fire at Will:

    1) When you lose normal Prep, you essentially lose discipline per second. With Invigoration and 30 max discipline (the minimum), you lose 0.89 discipline per second. With Invigoration and 80 max discipline (the maximum is 90, but let's say 80 is plenty), you're losing 2.0 discipline per second; at that level, removing preparation is equivalent to being able to have legacy nat's 4-piece bonus and saying "nope, don't want it" — so the benefit needs to be pretty substantial. Still, you were talking low gear levels, but if we assume at least 35 max discipline we're still talking about losing 1.0 or more discipline per second.

    2) If you have Punishment and Vengeance, each point of discipline gets traded for up to 6 hatred (up to 5 without Vengeance), assuming you're awesome and can time your Punishments for when you're at exactly zero hatred... but in reality you'll have 0-29 hatred when you activate Punishment, I'm going to assume an average of 15 and say you gain 5.4 with Vengeance and 4.4 without.

    3) With Vengeance, health globes become an important part of resource regen. With Fire at Will, each globe is 1.33 Multishots, plus 2 discipline. With Suppression Fire, each globe is either 0.67 Multishots (half as much) plus 2 discipline, or you could convert the discipline to hatred and make it 1.07 Multishots and 0 discipline (which is still much worse).

    4) Undergeared setup: assuming Vengeance, 1.1 aps crossbow with rare 14% attack speed quiver (1.25 aps) and 30 max discipline (no bonuses at all), you'd need to be hitting an average of 3.49* enemies per shot for Suppression Fire to equal Fire at Will on resource efficiency. In order to notice a significant improvement you'd have to beat that average by a significant amount, plus a cushion for the health globe difference.

    Note: The amount of hatred regen on gear does not factor into this equation; the question we're answering here is "which one works better?", not "which one works?" If you're undergeared and having resource issues, the best advice I can give is to use the more efficient choice and see if it works; if it doesn't, neither would have.

    5) Optimally geared setup: assuming Vengeance, 1.1 aps crossbow with 20% Dead Man's, 9% Temperance, and 9% Reflection (1.52 aps), as well as 80 max discipline, you'd need 4.09* enemies per shot on average, plus health globe cushion.

    So what does all this mean?

    1) For all Multishot spammers, asking an average of 3.5-4.0 monsters per shot to break even is asking a lot. Spamming stops being spamming if you're suddenly concerned about exactly how many monsters are in your cone. This is especially true for well-geared DHs, because the more max discipline, the better the lost Invigoration was, and the more they need to hit with each shot.

    2) Suppression Fire adds a "feast-or-famine" element to your resource regeneration. Trash scorpions? Refueling time! Phase beast & succubus fight? Might empty the tanks. For those with high max discipline, this is less of a problem, since they can stash the scorpion fuel for those hard fights later. However, those with low max discipline won't be able to fill past full and will have less gas to power through the harder fights later.

    In conclusion, Suppression Fire has a tough standard, an internal disincentive as your discipline gets higher, a separate internal disincentive as your discipline gets lower, and just straight-up less benefit from health globes. If you're having resource management issues, fancy Punishment builds aren't going to make your life easier, so just stick with Fire at Will (or use a different build entirely, just don't use Suppression Fire) and try to save up for some better gear.

    *(30-15)/5.4+0.89/1.25=3.49
    (30-15)/5.4+2/1.52=4.09

    edit @ mysticc & Drytchnath: This is a Multishot thread. Please take your (actually quite interesting!) discussion elsewhere.
    Last edited by Dethklok; 19-11-2012 at 03:15.

  2. #22
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    I still don't understand why you'd want to use a build that has any resource issues at all when farming. If your build is feast-or-famine, you're not going to be as efficient as a build that is basically feast non-stop. Hungering arrow, as awesome as it is with the best rune for your gear, is still not as efficient as a hatred spender like Ball Lightning except against single targets (and even then, you need some awesome crit gear to make that the case. Even 40% crit will still not kill faster than Ball Lightning. I only started to notice a tangible difference at 55% crit).

    I've tried the multishot version once again, and I still can't make it work. I've admitted it does more damage per shot (if it crits), but the feast-or-famine aspect to the skill is how you say - it doesn't work. I think with a certain movement style when playing, you can get the fast kills you're looking for with ball lightning without the cost deficiencies. It's very efficient on resources, so you never have to look at your gloves.

    I also don't agree with sentries in a speed farming build. My runs are so fast, I don't even think I could take advantage of it as I'm 1-shotting almost everything anyway. Hungering arrow is still useful with ball lightning. You have to know how to use them together.

    When it comes to speed farming, if your character can do an alkaizer run in like 10-11 minutes, then you've succeeded. I just think the ball lightning build is the easiest, more trivial way to play the character to achieve that. The only disadvantage is that it's a total snooze-fest, but it works.

    Lastly, I think Windforce is a decent bow, but it's damage is pathetic. It might be okay for MP0, but even on MP1 or MP2 you'd need the absolute best roll on it to make it viable for 10 minute runs. The Manticores just do way too much damage to pass them up.

  3. #23
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    [edit: deleted much content just because it's long-winded]

    Mysticc, I call BS. You have enough DPS for "10-11 minute Alkaizer runs" — on MP1 or MP2 no less — yet you "can't make it work." Do you even have Vengeance equipped? Ignoring health globes? You need to be altering something to make it fail; my best guess is you're keeping Night Stalker in over Vengeance, because it's good with Ball Lightning (higher proc rate) and you're using that to keep Tactical Advantage up instead of getting more discipline gear.
    Last edited by Dethklok; 20-11-2012 at 06:25.

  4. #24
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Can you explain why manticore is not optimal?

    It does not have the possibility to roll the same DPS as a rare, but can get way higher crit damage. Is it the lower base damage, or just the attack speed?

    I find that I already am low enough on attack speed, and with manticore I would be at about 1.45

  5. #25
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    Can you explain why manticore is not optimal?

    It does not have the possibility to roll the same DPS as a rare, but can get way higher crit damage. Is it the lower base damage, or just the attack speed?

    I find that I already am low enough on attack speed, and with manticore I would be at about 1.45
    I'm guessing he doesn't like it for the attack speed, because the point about base damage is sort of moot with the extra gem. With the manticore in my profile, which is far from the best roll, I am hard-pressed to find a rare or any other legendary that will do more damage per hit/second.

    To be honest though, doing more damage per hit is better than doing more attacks per second on a Demon Hunter (Monks are the opposite). Demon Hunter's have really poor hatred management, which forces us to take things like Vengeance or the Bat companion in every single build. Increasing attack speed actually makes the problem worse, which is something I just don't find acceptable. That's why I prefer Crossbows, and it's why the top 300 DH's are using Manticores. I also opt to get critical hit damage rather than attack speed on rings, amulets, etc.

  6. #26
    IncGamers Member Haywire's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Great thread. One of the most constructive lately. In my fav for my DH.

  7. #27
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    Can you explain why manticore is not optimal?

    It does not have the possibility to roll the same DPS as a rare, but can get way higher crit damage. Is it the lower base damage, or just the attack speed?
    I did some math, and in order to maintain the same DPS as I'm getting with my 1355.9 rare crossbow, I'd need a 1214 damage 2os Manticore, which would cost me about 100mil in the gold auction house. However, to keep the same DPA (damage per attack, which is damage per hatred) I'd need to overcome the attack speed issue; I'd need a a much higher DPS 2os Manticore: 1335 dps @ 10% IAS or 1347 dps @ 11% IAS. More like 400mil there (for a 1336.2 10% with Int). Keep in mind that my Multishot crit chance is over 75%, which is very high; for those with more normal crit chance, you'd need an even better Manticore to match a good black-damage rare. Another thing to keep in mind is that I don't have super-maxed crit damage (pretty good on gloves and amulet, but none on my rare ring), and if I had more off-weapon crit damage the relative benefit of 100 more would go down slightly.

    I guess that, technically, Manticore is still best-in-slot for this build, especially if you can get Multishot crit over 80%. However, it can't be emphasized enough that only the highest-quality 2os Manticores suffice, making it an extremely late-game optimization; for virtually everyone else on any reasonable budget, a rare crossbow is better. What you don't want to be is someone carrying around a weak Manticore just because it's "best in slot"... when a cheaper rare crossbow could have done the job better.
    Last edited by Dethklok; 21-11-2012 at 07:03.

  8. #28
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Yeah, my manticore was worth around 80-115 mil at the time I got, so I guess that's why I stick with it.

  9. #29
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Cool, that makes sense, thanks.

    The manticore will never be as good at consistently one shotting trash as the rare, but it can do much higher DPS.

  10. #30
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    Thumbs up Re: How to Multishot - A Speedfarming DH Guide

    Firstly, thanks a lot to Dethklok for showing how this works. I was using ball lightning on mp3 and going nowhere.. slow farming, slow leveling, etc. Tried ball lightning on mp0 and it was slightly faster but the damned balls are soooo slow. Those spearmen and heralds were taking a shot whenever I showed up... too many dodge it or you are dead situations. I have abysmal EHP btw, don't even want to know how low it is. Then came Multishot.
    I started the DH a few weeks ago with my mf monk gear, bought a cheap manticore cause ofc as everyone knows they are bis and a cheap DML. Now I'm trying to phase out the attack speed, get a good DML with max disc + 8% multi crit and an awesome rare physical bow with no attack speed. I'm leveling crazy fast with zero deaths and have stopped picking up some rares too - makes me too slow vendoring crap rares which will never be good. I love my SoJ to bits and the sense of power it gives me.. see elite - put up gloom - right click - dead elite.
    Only problems I have faced are
    1. Lack of hatred cause I was too lazy to vault into the globes
    2. Not putting up gloom at every elite pack will instantly kill you cause you are too fast to notice affixes and such trivialities
    3. If you don't have pickup radius, you suck.. big time. I had zero at first (damned monk gear), I dropped 9k dps and 15 mil to get 14 yards and my baby is silky smooth now.
    Lastly, you don't need awesome gear like Dethklok's to make this work (yes, you definitely want it). This is mine..
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/D.../hero/21978026
    If you still see the Andys and the gloves with zero pickup then they haven't updated yet. I got a Nat sight with 3.5 crit ( :( low ) + 7 pickup and a glove with 130+ dex, 8.5crit, some critdam, some mf and 7 pickup. Damn overpriced items cost me 15 mil and they are the sweetest 15 I ever spent.

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