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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicrectangle View Post
    Except you don't need 300k dps, as dethklok has already demonstrated with his video, 100k dps lets you farm mp0 very quickly and effectively. There's simply no need to turn up the MP setting if you're not shopping for keys.

    The relevant metric is how much loot you can get per unit time, not how high you can set the MP setting before you start dying. That might be amusing, but it isn't going to make you any money. MP0 farming as a DH with 100k+ dps most definitely gets you lots and lots of loot per unit time.
    I totally get that. I farm Mp1 on my witch doctor because it's the same time as it would be on MP0. She basically 1-shots everything anyway, except for the moon clan occulists (the dudes that run around like idiots), and that's mostly because zombie bears has poor range. Everything else just drops immediately.

    On Demon Hunter, I did MP1 for the hell of it mostly, but also because trash was very easy to do with elemental arrow still (the same time as on MP0). The problem is just dealing with elites. With loaded for bear, it's actually pretty efficient on MP1 (it's a lot faster than he's killing them with Multishot on MP0), but then you can't get Vault - hence the problem.

    I've done an MP0 run with elemental arrow, and I did one with multishot. My elemental arrow time was much better.

    I still say say 100k dps is not enough to be *really* efficient as you could be. You'd need at least 200k for that. 300k is probably overkill - I dunno, it's not like we can easily test it. I just know 100k is not enough to kill things as fast as a witch doctor could.

    Ideally, if you want to be very efficient, you'd need to move around the map as well as a Demon Hunter could, but kill elites in just a few seconds like the witch doctor. If you can get the best of both worlds, you'd have a pretty efficient farmer

  2. #12
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    Ideally, if you want to be very efficient, you'd need to move around the map as well as a Demon Hunter could, but kill elites in just a few seconds like the witch doctor. If you can get the best of both worlds, you'd have a pretty efficient farmer
    I'll take DH movement with Archon, please.

  3. #13
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicrectangle View Post
    I'll take DH movement with Archon, please.
    That'll work too.

  4. #14
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Yeah, I let my EHP get a little low gearing, so I upgraded to a cloak with 150 more vit than it had before (zero). Most of the time I could gloom through phase beasts, but it failed about 10% of the time, which was too much. (New cloak is also a hatred regen upgrade; I lost 1 discipline). I could probably record a new run with less kiting (and better video quality -- the avi on my desktop plays crystal clear, so I just need a better converter).

    If I was a higher paragon level, I could cut some MF gear to EASILY have 120k dps, maybe more... and I will, with time. As my plvl indicates I don't play that much (I have a life, I'm on my cell chilling at work now); I just try to play smart.

    I'm planning on writing up an endgame multishot build guide for DHs, I've faithfully stuck by Fired at Will since 1.03 so I have lots of experience with how to gear for it.

  5. #15
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    My point is that witch doctor doesn't care about its survival period, which makes it a better farming class. It even has a built-in way to prevent deaths, which is a boost to efficiency since you can play very reckless and tank like crazy. Tanking is efficiency incarnate for any class. Kiting contributes to way too much downtime, because it will produce less dps and you'll have to backtrack the ground that was lost when moving backwards.

    I've farmed act 3 on MP1/2 dozens of times and I haven't died once since I got above 40k dps on my Witch Doctor. I died on MP3 once, but that's only because I was super reckless and I underestimated the difficulty as it was the first time I was playing it (it's not really efficient to run anyway).

    On MP0 or MP1 with worse gear, the Witch Doctor fears no elite packs. It does fear molten on MP2 though (the common complaint we see on the blizzard forums). Reflect Damage has become a little scary as my Witch Doctor got closer to 80k dps, but as long as I see that the elite pack has it before I attack it, it's no problem. I just have not be lazy. I don't think this problem is exclusive to Witch Doctor though.

    I've ran my DH on MP0 several times yesterday with Elemental Arrow, and I finally got the build running similar to how you have it (I think a tad better - you should try elemental arrow out. I think it's more efficient for 100k dps). This will free up the build to take Nightstalker instead of Vengeance, which I think makes the build more efficient (at least for my gear anyway. I have no bonuses to discipline on my gear).

    The only drawback that I can see to using Elemental Arrow is that it can't shoot through walls. Multishot has the advantage there.

  6. #16
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    By elemental arrow I'm assuming your choice rune is Ball Lightning? May I recommend experimenting with Echoing Blast as the hatred spender. If there is a constant need to kite around then placing some well position Echoing Blast traps ahead, then in turn kiting around those traps can be a very efficient way of clearing elites. Especially if you are able to mix in Custom Engineering or Marked for Death (Valley of Death).


    I would say efficiency in farming is about how much time you spend surviving and dealing DPS verses the time you spend reviving or having to kite away then backtrack to where you were. So in turn, I created a character at roughly 100k DPS but with the main focus in gearing was effective health (I just found it much cheaper to build a 100k DPS demon hunter that can survive than a 200k one that has to constantly kite all the time). My efficiency tops off at MP 5 in terms of speed. I currently use Imminent Doom with Echoing Blast (recently added marked for death) to make up for lack of raw DPS and mobs are cleared somewhat quickly.

    I'm currently brining up a Witch Doctor (although I have a friend who looks to invest some time into creating a MP 5 viable WD) so I'd like to be able to revisit this post sometime.

    Edit: I also noticed in another thread that Mysticc has/had a similar build in regards to DH stats (4000 armor, 500 resist, 100k DPS) I may have even at one point modeled my character around his/hers because the profile name looked very familiar. The difference is the having that extra amount of discipline, additional attack speed as well as choices in damage dealers. Those factors despite the base similarities could make a huge difference. I think straying away from the typical Hungering/Elemental build and experimenting with other skills may change the opinion.
    Last edited by Mad D; 01-11-2012 at 10:10.

  7. #17
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad D View Post
    By elemental arrow I'm assuming your choice rune is Ball Lightning?
    Yes, of course. There's no other viable option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad D View Post
    May I recommend experimenting with Echoing Blast as the hatred spender. If there is a constant need to kite around then placing some well position Echoing Blast traps ahead, then in turn kiting around those traps can be a very efficient way of clearing elites. Especially if you are able to mix in Custom Engineering or Marked for Death (Valley of Death).
    For an MP0+ build, elemental arrow must be used to clear trash effectively. If you use anything else, except for maybe multishot (and even then, you are wasting too much hatred), the trash will not die in acceptable time frames. So if you want to introduce yet another hatred spender, then I'm not sure why it would be better than the Loaded for Bear variant (having both that and Elemental Arrow in the same build).

    For farming, I'm basically against anything that involves kiting. If I am kiting at all, I basically take a step back and ask, "What the hell is going wrong?" There's always an answer to this question, and once you solve that problem and stop kiting, farming efficiency goes up. Since traps are annoying to aim and get to work 100% of the time, and they imply a wait time for them to be set off by something, it already rules itself out for being efficient. I've tried the spike traps - they are not as effective as Loaded for Bear.

    I will re-iterate, the problem with the Loaded for Bear variant isn't kiting and it isn't its effectiveness - it's the fact that you can't have Vault on the bar. The loaded for bear variant can kill elites perfectly fine - it's main problem is the slow speed that the character moves across the map.

    When farming MP0, Elemental Arrow can be used to kill everything. While it is not the best elite killer in the world, with a high-enough dps (say 150-200k), it could be. This would allow the Demon Hunter to get Vault w/ Tumble on the bar, which ultimately speeds up the run to be as fast as humanly possible. Having 2 hatred spenders on the bar is already a recipe for disaster as I don't see how to get rid of Preparation, a Hatred Generator like Hungering Arrow or Bola Shot, the Bat Companion and Smokescreen/Shadow Power.

    The Bat Companion is not optional, and it is a better choice compared to Vengeance since you can get more DPS that way.

    I don't think Shadow Power is optional because reflect damage is too big of a threat in 1.0.5 now. So that means there's no room for 2 hatred spenders if you want Vault on the bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad D View Post
    I would say efficiency in farming is about how much time you spend surviving and dealing DPS verses the time you spend reviving or having to kite away then backtrack to where you were.
    That's not quite how I look at it at all. For me, farming efficiency is simply how fast I can achieve the run - that's it. It's the total time of killing, backtracking, kiting, dying, identifying and sell items, etc. Minimizing the downtime is usually the right place to optimize if the killing speed is adequate (i.e. 1- or 2-shotting everything in your path, which is usually the case for a Loaded for Bear build).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad D View Post
    So in turn, I created a character at roughly 100k DPS but with the main focus in gearing was effective health (I just found it much cheaper to build a 100k DPS demon hunter that can survive than a 200k one that has to constantly kite all the time). My efficiency tops off at MP 5 in terms of speed. I currently use Imminent Doom with Echoing Blast (recently added marked for death) to make up for lack of raw DPS and mobs are cleared somewhat quickly.
    This build will be much slower than the Loaded for Bear build, or the plain Elemental Arrow build on MP0. Imminent Doom is already too slow as you're arbitrarily adding 2 seconds at least onto anything you use it against. That's too slow.

    Also, MP5 for almost every character is not efficient in of itself. MP0/1 is where you probably want to farm at in almost all cases. You'd basically have to run MP3-5 in roughly the same amount of time to make it worth it, but I already know that a 100k dps Demon Hunter can simply not do this. You'd need 300-400k dps on MP5 to achieve it what a 150k dps could do on MP1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad D View Post
    I'm currently brining up a Witch Doctor (although I have a friend who looks to invest some time into creating a MP 5 viable WD) so I'd like to be able to revisit this post sometime.
    When you finally get around to playing him on Inferno with reasonable gear, I think you'll re-assess how efficient your Demon Hunter build is. You'll see this whole discussion in a totally different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad D View Post
    Edit: I also noticed in another thread that Mysticc has/had a similar build in regards to DH stats (4000 armor, 500 resist, 100k DPS) I may have even at one point modeled my character around his/hers because the profile name looked very familiar. The difference is the having that extra amount of discipline, additional attack speed as well as choices in damage dealers. Those factors despite the base similarities could make a huge difference. I think straying away from the typical Hungering/Elemental build and experimenting with other skills may change the opinion.
    Attack speed is not critical for Demon Hunter, because the best bows are Crossbows anyway. 7% attack speed on a slow weapon is still a slow weapon. Crit % and Crit Damage are much better stats for a Demon Hunter.

    I choose the Hungering Arrow/Elemental Arrow build because it is potentially the most efficient at high gear levels on low MP settings. Anything else wastes too much resources since the Demon Hunter resource management is broken and doesn't have the same loopholes like the barbarian and witch doctor have.

  8. #18
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    I don't think Shadow Power is optional because reflect damage is too big of a threat in 1.0.5 now. So that means there's no room for 2 hatred spenders if you want Vault on the bar.
    Good resists + good LOH on your weapon or amulet = problem solved.

    The only reason I even notice reflect damage is because I show damage numbers, and that was with an ammy that had about 500 LOH (I just upgraded to 900 LOH).

  9. #19
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanadin View Post
    Good resists + good LOH on your weapon or amulet = problem solved.

    The only reason I even notice reflect damage is because I show damage numbers, and that was with an ammy that had about 500 LOH (I just upgraded to 900 LOH).
    I guess. For me, it was more important to get an amulet with the basic stats. Life on hit would make it cost far too much. Same goes with manticore. The life steal ones with the same stats as mine go for 5x the price the last time I checked. I didn't check life on hit, but I figured Life Steal would work out to be better anyway. If not with 120k dps, in the long-run it would be.

    My character has fairly good resists - over 500 and over 4000 armor. It doesn't make much of a difference when it comes to reflect damage. Shadow Power seemed the only good way to do it without paying a fortune. I agree that in theory, a good manticore with dex/2 sockets/life steal might remove shadow power from the bar. I'd have to test it, but I don't have the gold to buy such a weapon.

    In any event, I'm pretty close to 150k dps, and 118k dps is doing fine on MP0. It's still too low for MP1 in my opinion without Loaded for Bear, but it's been pretty efficient at MP0. When I get to 150k dps, I might be able to do MP1 in the same time as MP0.
    Last edited by mysticc; 01-11-2012 at 16:14.

  10. #20
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanadin View Post
    Good resists + good LOH on your weapon or amulet = problem solved.
    On MP0 spamming ball lightning at trash and low HP elites, sure, I guess.

    For high MP keyfarming / ubers using loaded for bear, gloom or go home. You can't get enough LoH to counteract loaded for bear with 200k dps reflected at you.

    Honestly on MP0 you could just blow them up and pick up their health globes, so long as your EHP is reasonable. You don't even need the LoH (nice to have though).

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