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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    I often ask myself this question. I'm sure if you reach 200k+ dps, it might not feel like it, but often at lower gear levels, it doesn't seem to compare well with some of the other classes. Wizard seems to be the only class that is worse when your character has around 30-70k dps (although I'd still say the DH is far better).

    I've just been playing a witch doctor as a late, and she was geared much worse than my demon hunter. My demon hunter was doing around 90k dps, but my witch doctor at just 38k dps was actually clearing MP1 act 3 faster. I was in a bit of disbelief.

    As I geared the witch doctor to 78k dps, I could clear MP2 faster than my demon hunter could clear MP1.

    The biggest problem with the DH, from what I can see anyway, is that with modest gear - 60-100k dps, you can't both kill elites quickly and vault around the map like crazy. You can only basically do one or the other. If you know how to have both Vault and Cluster Arrow - Loaded for Bear in the same build... and have it work effortlessly without resource problems, I am all ears.

    Contrast this with the witch doctor, and she has the ability to cast zombie bears over and over again, gain lots of resources and life quickly, be invulnerable some of the time, and quickly move across the map all in the same build. This makes her quite an efficient character to play.

    My problem is that I'd love to actually play the demon hunter instead of the witch doctor, but I can't simply give up the farming efficiency of the witch doctor.

    For all the people that tout how great hungering arrow is, it seems to do much worse than Flash Fire or Ghost Bomb by a huge margin. If you don't critical hit with hungering arrow, it seems to do hardly any damage at all - even with a 14% damage modifier on Dead Man's Legacy. I tend to use Bola Shot - Thundering Ball for the CC, because it seems to be far stronger of an ability, even if the damage is a small % less.

    Now, I know gearing the Demon Hunter to even higher levels will "solve the problem", but that still doesn't solve the underlying problem - why can the witch doctor at subpar gear levels out-perform the demon hunter? What is fundamentally wrong with the class?

    I know people use legacy nats and stuff, and they probably don't even know what I'm talking about. I'm just a bit disappointed that I can't figure out an efficient farming build for the demon hunter, despite the fact that her gear is better than my witch doctor.

  2. #2
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    This is me speed-farming Act 3 at MP0 at 300GF/300MF (video quality sucks though, I'm new to this screen-capture stuff). If you can do an Alkaizer run in under 13 minutes with any other class, let me know.
    This is my profile. I wouldn't say I have budget gear, but I don't have even one piece of Nat's gear. I'm also running Hardened for the lulz.
    This is why being able to speed-run MP0 is important.

    If you ask me, DH is the best farming class.

  3. #3
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Why are you running MP0 instead of MP1? I would probably not have the same problems if i were farming in MP0 (since it's a lot easier), which means you can get away with less dps (and thus probably do not require Loaded for Bear). The fact that you are not using Loaded for Bear tells me that's where your efficiency is coming from. Multishot, by itself, would never cut it in MP1. You'd be firing 20 shots with 100k dps before any elite pack died, which is terribly inefficient. The only way to consistent down elite packs in MP1 is with Loaded for Bear (or I guess Cluster Bombs if you are master at aiming it in 100% of elite pack cases, but I doubt anyone is).

    And again, contrast this with Witch Doctor, who can basically 2-shot 85% of elite packs with Zombie Bears. The other 15% run around like crazy morons, so you have to use Ghostly bomb or Spirit Walk into them individually, which takes a little longer. Still, it's overall faster than anything I've ever done with my Demon Hunter.

    You may be doing well on MP0, but I think any properly geared class can do well in MP0. That doesn't speak volumes for the demon hunter at all. Run Like the Wind, Tempest Rush, or Spirit Walk would all do fairly well on MP0 too. Your efficiency comes from stacking MF gear, which any class can do. That is not specific to Demon Hunter.

    I still submit that you will get raped in MP1, and lesser geared witch doctors will long clear MP1 before you even finish a 1/3 of your act 3 run.

  4. #4
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    Why are you running MP0 instead of MP1?
    Act 3 already has level 63 enemies, so there's not much benefit to bumping it up to MP1, loot wise. The main thing you gain from MP levels is the ability to find keys/organs, but if you're just regular old loot farming MP0 is just fine.

  5. #5
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicrectangle View Post
    Act 3 already has level 63 enemies, so there's not much benefit to bumping it up to MP1, loot wise. The main thing you gain from MP levels is the ability to find keys/organs, but if you're just regular old loot farming MP0 is just fine.
    Okay. Even so, that doesn't make the demon hunter the best farmer :/ This still doesn't explain why the Witch Doctor (and consequently, the Barbarian probably although I can't say for sure) can farm greater MP levels efficiently. In the Witch Doctor's case, it can absolutely be done with crappy gear.

    With Witch Doctor, I don't even bother with MP0 since I think I can clear MP1 in the same time.

    I just tried Demon Hunter in MP0, and she still sucks. I have over 100k dps, and I cast hungering arrow over and over and over, and it takes forever to kill anything. The highest number I see is like 150k if it crits, and that's only sometimes. My witch doctor crits for like 350k, and it's to all enemies in the Zombie Bears vacinity - not just one enemy.

    I know I long complained how broken the Wizard class is, but the so is the Demon Hunter - but nearly as bad. The classes are still not at all balanced in Diablo 3. The power ranking is as follows.

    1. Barbarians
    2. Witch Doctors
    3. Monks
    4. Demon Hunters
    5. Wizards

    They need nerf the top 2 and buff the bottom 2.
    Last edited by mysticc; 31-10-2012 at 10:10.

  6. #6
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    Why are you running MP0 instead of MP1?
    MF@MP0 = 100 (base) + 300 (gear/Plvl) + 75 (5xNV) = 475
    MF@MP1 = 100 (base) + 300 (gear/Plvl) + 75 (5xNV) = 500
    475 to 500 = +5.3% better item quality while monster health increases +50%
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    Multishot, by itself, would never cut it in MP1. You'd be firing 20 shots with 100k dps before any elite pack died, which is terribly inefficient.
    I think the video clearly shows I kill elites on MP0 very, very fast; none of those mobs took more than 10 shots. On MP1 I would take 50% longer, 15 shots max.
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    You may be doing well on MP0, but I think any properly geared class can do well in MP0. That doesn't speak volumes for the demon hunter at all. Run Like the Wind, Tempest Rush, or Spirit Walk would all do fairly well on MP0 too. Your efficiency comes from stacking MF gear, which any class can do. That is not specific to Demon Hunter.
    My efficiency comes from Tactical Advantage and Vengeance.
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    I still submit that you will get raped in MP1, and lesser geared witch doctors will long clear MP1 before you even finish a 1/3 of your act 3 run.
    Yeah you really didn't watch the video. You're closeminded and refuse to accept new information. So yeah, go ahead and believe what you want.

  7. #7
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticc View Post
    The classes are still not at all balanced in Diablo 3. The power ranking is as follows.

    1. Barbarians
    2. Witch Doctors
    3. Monks
    4. Demon Hunters
    5. Wizards
    This sort of depends on gear level. At low gear level I'd mostly agree with your rankings, although I might even put witch doctors ahead of barbarians if we're talking really low gear level.

    At high gear level, specifically for item finding (IE raping low MP settings) it looks more like:

    1. Demon Hunter
    2. Monk
    3. Barbarian
    4. Wizard
    5. Witch Doctor

    If instead we talk about ability to farm high MP (not at all efficient for loot/gold, but good for ubers):

    1. Barbarian
    2. Wizard
    <big gap>
    3. Monk
    4. Witch Doctor
    5. Demon Hunter

    I'm not sure how much high MP balance matters, since it is only particularly useful for farming one single item for one single item slot, the hellfire ring. I suppose it ought to be balanced, but it doesn't seem like it should be a huge balance priority.
    Last edited by magicrectangle; 31-10-2012 at 11:24.

  8. #8
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    MF@MP0 = 100 (base) + 300 (gear/Plvl) + 75 (5xNV) = 475
    MF@MP1 = 100 (base) + 300 (gear/Plvl) + 75 (5xNV) = 500
    475 to 500 = +5.3% better item quality while monster health increases +50%
    I think the video clearly shows I kill elites on MP0 very, very fast; none of those mobs took more than 10 shots. On MP1 I would take 50% longer, 15 shots max.
    My efficiency comes from Tactical Advantage and Vengeance.

    Yeah you really didn't watch the video. You're closeminded and refuse to accept new information. So yeah, go ahead and believe what you want.
    15 shots is basically 13 unnecessary shots if you compare it to a Witch Doctor. This is not me being closed minded - this is you not knowing about how strong a witch doctor is at farming these early levels with crappy gear. One zombie bear hit does like 350k damage, and I have less onboard DPS than you do by about 25-30%. The fact that you think it's "very fast" is irrelevant. It's slow compared to a witch doctor.

    The fact that you have to kite that mob at the beginning, I dare say, is pathetic. That's fast? All this illustrates is how bad the DH is compared to the Witch Doctor. The witch doctor would have killed it and moved on to the end of the map long before you killed it. I don't mean to say you're pathetic - but the class is. It's not balanced. This is blizzard's stupid fault. They make a game where you MUST tank to be efficient, but then give us a ****ty class called the Demon Hunter that has to kite and waste time and does crap damage. 200k onboard dps for a demon hunter is worse than 70-80k dps on a witch doctor.

    And of course you get efficiencies through Vengeance and Tactical Advantage - this is what I'm been doing for days when playing my demon hunter up to paragon level 37. It's no different than Run like the Wind or Tempest Rush. It's just the Demon Hunter's way to move fast around the map. All of the other classes except Wizard have the same advantage more or less. Sure, some are less efficient than others (like Spirit Walk), but coupled with their killing speed, it honestly is much faster, especially at MP1/2.

    Basically, you've shown that the Demon Hunter can farm the easiest setting on the game. The witch doctor can basically do the same thing at Mp2 with your level of gear in roughly the same amount of time, but getting the 8% trash drop.

  9. #9
    IncGamers Member mysticc's Avatar
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicrectangle View Post
    This sort of depends on gear level. At low gear level I'd mostly agree with your rankings, although I might even put witch doctors ahead of barbarians if we're talking really low gear level.

    At high gear level, specifically for item finding (IE raping low MP settings) it looks more like:

    1. Demon Hunter
    2. Monk
    3. Barbarian
    4. Wizard
    5. Witch Doctor

    If instead we talk about ability to farm high MP (not at all efficient for loot/gold, but good for ubers):

    1. Barbarian
    2. Wizard
    <big gap>
    3. Monk
    4. Witch Doctor
    5. Demon Hunter

    I'm not sure how much high MP balance matters, since it is only particularly useful for farming one single item for one single item slot, the hellfire ring. I suppose it ought to be balanced, but it doesn't seem like it should be a huge balance priority.
    That all makes sense. I can only speak for the gear levels I'm talking about honestly, because that's all I have experience in.

    I do agree that the more gear you put on a Demon Hunter, it makes perfect sense that she would be the most efficient in the long run at low MP settings. It's just a shame that you need 300k onboard dps to realize this. I've thought the same thing, as it's a pretty simple question - "How can I kill stuff faster without Loaded for Bear on my bar?" The only answer to this question is getting better dps. Without better gear though, Witch Doctor blows the crap out of it I'm afraid.

  10. #10
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    Re: Is the demon hunter a poor farming class?

    Except you don't need 300k dps, as dethklok has already demonstrated with his video, 100k dps lets you farm mp0 very quickly and effectively. There's simply no need to turn up the MP setting if you're not shopping for keys.

    The relevant metric is how much loot you can get per unit time, not how high you can set the MP setting before you start dying. That might be amusing, but it isn't going to make you any money. MP0 farming as a DH with 100k+ dps most definitely gets you lots and lots of loot per unit time.

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