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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by DickScotchfist View Post
    This is misleading as you're not taking into account total ticks/second at each breakpoint.
    Correct. I wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by DickScotchfist View Post
    Not to mention the gains of hitting a new breakpoint with a 100mil ias ring is way more cost effective than the gains of getting a 5crit chance (really? cause those are everywhere week 2 of patch right?) zunimassa's pox ring with armor/vit at 800 million, yet remaining at a lower breakpoint.
    Assuming breakpoints don't completely mess up my math here, it should be a cheaper ring, because it does less. Paying 10 times as much for that last 1% effectiveness is pretty much standard for high-end gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by DickScotchfist View Post
    Edit: and just to drive home how misguided this is, I'd like to add that Kestegs just yesterday actually sold his crit chance Zunimassa's and replaced it with his current ias zuni's, a smart move imo
    Deliberately downgrading your equipment for immediate profit is almost always a bad idea. Crit chance isn't a fad, it is just straight-up good; it's not going to stop being good. Over time, a crit-chance Zuni's will depreciate slower than an attack-speed Zuni's, because the better the gear is the slower it depreciates. It wasn't a smart move; it was a dumb one.

  2. #12
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    Correct. I wasn't.
    Assuming breakpoints don't completely mess up my math here, it should be a cheaper ring, because it does less. Paying 10 times as much for that last 1% effectiveness is pretty much standard for high-end gear.

    Deliberately downgrading your equipment for immediate profit is almost always a bad idea. Crit chance isn't a fad, it is just straight-up good; it's not going to stop being good. Over time, a crit-chance Zuni's will depreciate slower than an attack-speed Zuni's, because the better the gear is the slower it depreciates. It wasn't a smart move; it was a dumb one.
    I actually sold my 3% cc zuni's for more than I paid for my AS zuni's, and I expect the price on low cc zuni's will continue to fall. It was an upgrade as far as farming efficiency goes, and also effective health so I see no issue with it. It's also not a piece I can replace until I have 600+ million to spend on that slot so it'll be there for quite a while.

    If you know so much about the best gear for a windup wizard you should show us your gear.

  3. #13
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    If you know so much about the best gear for a windup wizard you should show us your gear.
    False logic. I don't need to play a wind-up wizard to be able to properly perform basic arithmetic.

    Regardless, here's the math where we actually factor in breakpoints:
    33*.54=17.82 crits* per twister per target per duration (your old ring)
    36*.51=18.36 crits* per twister per target per duration (your new ring)
    33*.56=18.48 crits* per twister per target per duration (5% crit chance zunis)

    * remember to apply proc rate when determining APoC returns

    So in conclusion
    1) I'm good at math
    2) Being good at math doesn't help you if you're ignorant of exceptions, such as breakpoint tables, because you don't actually play a certain character type (I have played a nightstalker DH before though, so the crits/sec metric is familar)
    3) Sometimes I'm a dick and assume too much, like assuming the zunis had at least 4.5% cc (even at 4.5% the attack speed would have been a very slight upgrade due to breakpoints)

  4. #14
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Right.

    The biggest factor though is whether you hit the breakpoint or not. Hitting the 2.74 breakpoint gives me roughly a 10% increase in ww ticks so it isn't linear like most skills.


    Really it was just the cheapest and easiest way to reach that breakpoint.

  5. #15
    PoE Moderator DickScotchfist's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    Hitting a new breakpoint is a major achievement, and worthy of losing a couple crit points by far, which you can make up by dropping your nova rune, etc. Rune switches are easy and do not break builds or even necessarily worsen them. In order to "skill-boost" the speed at which your tornados 'punch' an enemy takes an entire skill button sacrifice.

    His decision was an upgrade in my eyes, plain and simple.

    And please at least replace your math with 4.0, not 5.0, as 5.0 rings (where the other stats aren't trash) are out-of-this world expensive even as end game pieces (just hard to find really) as of right now. Your self-berating post though was pretty cool, and I'm appreciative that you got a discussion going while remaining humble.

    The real question here should be whether all these sacrifices are worth it for the most expensive 55 All Res in the game with the current damage rate at mp10. I'm surprised this hasn't become the talking point yet. Regardless of everyones opinion, I think we can all agree that correct end game EHP gear has a zuni's pox. And if I eventually roll cc on my hellfire (please, God, soon), I intend to lose my damage-trifecta rare and can only hope to replace it with something close to kestegs' EHP heavy, ias zuni's.

    Out of curiosity what wizard are you running if I might ask? If it is a windup, please tell us your ApS and your success with it. Better yet, if crit is so important to you, at which point do you feel enough is enough on stacking it. You seem to know what you're talking about, so I'd appreciate an outside opinion.

  6. #16
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    Did a lot of research into Energy Twister breakpoints. Even made a spreadsheet. Not too interesting though, I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by DickScotchfist View Post
    But as of RIGHT NOW. Chantodo's wands with ias (no socket) are EXTREMELY affordable despite being the better of the two.
    All my research really backs this point up. Socketed isn't even the second best mod; that distinction goes to Energy Twister skill bonus (more crit chance); a high skill bonus is better than a low IAS, but nothing beats an 11-percenter.

    On that note, the BiS ring would be a 6% Twister skill bonus, 6% crit chance, 7% attack speed Skull Grasp. With Int. Good luck finding that one, especially since you can't (currently) run a search for the twister bonus in the AH.

    For reaching the higher breakpoints, somewhat odd gear such as Inna's Temperance and (extra-weird) Asheara's Tracks are required. Has anyone used these? I think the Inna's are actually a good idea, you should be able to find a cheap pair with Int on them socket it up with topazes, but the Tracks seem like a steep cost to reach the next breakpoint.

  7. #17
    PoE Moderator DickScotchfist's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    I'm currently saving for temperance pants myself so that I can put crit on my zuni ring instead of ias. Instead of int though, I'm looking at very high armor ones (800 range) and will probably socket them with vit gems to make them more ehp worthy.

    That skull grasp is an idea! I want to look into this more.

    Edit: pretty sure 10 is perfect ias on chants wand too, though might be wrong.
    Last edited by DickScotchfist; 28-10-2012 at 01:45.

  8. #18
    D3 Monk Moderator kestegs's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    I've never seen an 11% Chantodo, not sure why it can't get it though.

    Inna's pants are such an EHP nightmare for a wizard. I think the only way I could do it would be to get them with 70+ AR

  9. #19
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by kestegs View Post
    Inna's pants are such an EHP nightmare for a wizard. I think the only way I could do it would be to get them with 70+ AR
    I count dodge chance in my EHP calculations, although non-dodge EHP is still important when you're at risk of getting one-shot. I definitely think Dex-for-dodge>Str-for-armor... which apparently is something that people are already doing when looking at Chantodo sources, if this thread is any indicator. (Obviously Vit is better than both.)

    Btw here's a breakpoint table that I think is better than the other's I've seen around:
    Code:
    OFF-WEAPON IAS NEEDED FOR BREAKPOINTS                 TWISTER TICKS PER CAST
    WEAPON              FOLLOWER          APS    40   36  32  30  27  25  24  22  21  20  18
    11%IAS Chantodo's   Enchantress      1.834   82   64  49  37  26  17  10   3   0
    11%IAS Chantodo's   non-Enchantress  1.804   85   67  52  39  28  19  11   4   0
    Azurewrath          Enchantress      1.720   94   75  59  46  35  25  17  10   3   0
    Azurewrath          non-Enchantress  1.690   98   78  62  48  37  27  19  11   5   0
    rare 11%IAS dagger  Enchantress      1.695   97   77  61  48  37  27  18  11   5   0
    rare 11%IAS dagger  non-Enchantress  1.665  101   81  64  51  39  29  21  13   6   1   0
    nonIAS Chantodo's   Enchantress      1.680   99   79  63  49  38  28  20  12   6   0
    nonIAS Chantodo's   non-Enchantress  1.650  103   82  66  52  40  30  22  14   7   2   0
    rare 11%IAS wand    Enchantress      1.584  111   90  73  58  46  36  27  19  12   6   0
    rare 11%IAS wand    non-Enchantress  1.554        94  76  61  49  38  29  21  14   8   0
    rare nonIAS dagger  Enchantress      1.530        97  79  64  51  41  31  23  16   9   0
    rare nonIAS dagger  non-Enchantress  1.500       100  82  67  54  43  34  25  18  12   0
    rare nonIAS wand    Enchantress      1.430       110  91  75  62  50  40  32  24  17   5
    rare nonIAS wand    non-Enchantress  1.400            95  79  65  54  43  34  27  20   8
    I think highest off-weapon IAS possible (on a wizard) is 88%, but I went 25% over just in case (plus, you can see how Frenzy shrines effect you, assuming they aren't weird like Enchantress bonus).
    Last edited by Dethklok; 28-10-2012 at 05:50.

  10. #20
    PoE Moderator DickScotchfist's Avatar
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    Re: So You Want To Be a 1.05 Windup Wizard

    QQ so 11% does exist :-/

    Yeah, after feeling solid taking on mp10 ubers today, I could still sense that I'm only slightly above the necessary (not far above as I presumed) AR to do so. So the cheap 800 armor inna's are not happening I'm afraid. The Zuni's bonus is just too sweet, but it can't cover not having AR on pants. Neither will any nat's set be happening for awhile.

    Guess it's time for flat out upgrading now. Maybe try to increase the CD a bit.

    Thanks for that table. It's part of my OS background now ^_^

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