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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    Well, I see I'm not the only one that was on the right track in taking a look at the system and instantly figuring this out.

  2. #12
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    @Dethklok

    I understand your math only partially. Could you care to explain it with an example, where you explain how the farm run length plays into this. Some players pick up all rares and some only ring/amulet. Also adding +25% MF doesnt do much, if you have allready like 250-300 MF with 5xNV, PL and Gear. The graph for MF isnt linear, correct ?
    Did you measure in the bonus item drop chance for increasing MPL ?

    I am a low geared DH right now and i dont see this getting anywhere effective to change from Act3 MP0 to MP1 or Act1/2 MP1 to MP2. I would really need very high dps to make it worth for just one MPL more.

    @all
    The extra rare drop from 5xNV is seriously only 4 affix always ?

  3. #13
    IncGamers Member Crunchy II's Avatar
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by patonis View Post
    @all
    The extra rare drop from 5xNV is seriously only 4 affix always ?
    Yeh, I can't believe that either. When you already vendor 99% of rares you hardly need more crap ones.

  4. #14
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollei View Post
    This math does not compute for WW barbs, since now its much harder to sustain zerk the best way to find loot is the MPL where the health of the monsters enables you to keep zerk almost all time but at the same it must be the lowest possible MPL so u can kill monsters the fastest possible.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/pt/profile/r...6/hero/1353836

    Look at my case for instance, i just cannot keep zerk on mpl 0-2, on 3 i strugle a little so i farm on MPL 4. Zerk not only increases your dps, but the best bennefit of it is that it reduces your downtime IMMENSELLY. It reduces kiting, it gives you insane speed and insane dps. So ... for barbs just keep that in mind when farming.
    maybe thats why this is for MOST characters and not all dude.. god damn.. read more please...

  5. #15
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by patonis View Post
    @all
    The extra rare drop from 5xNV is seriously only 4 affix always ?
    No. It just can't be any worse than 4 affixes. It has a chance to be a legendary, or 6 or 5 affix rare, just like any other drop, but it is guaranteed to be no worse than a 4 affix rare.

    See here if you want to know more:
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6397790310

  6. #16
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    As far as I can tell the "bonus rare" is really a "bonus item" if you discount 4-affix rares. So it's another item that might roll legendary or 6-affix. Therefore, at 5 stacks, other than the MF, you also get 3 guaranteed items from an elite pack rather than just 2 (anything more than that, though, is "normal" monster drops and has nothing to do with it being an elite pack, again as far as I understand). This makes 5 valor buffs quite a bit more important for MF than they are for XP.

    Regarding keeping berserker up, like I said the XP/hour loss is simply there, and the WotB uptime, in practice, was not enough to make up for it.

    As for loot/hour rather than xp/hour, I found that I get a lot more elites/hour doing act 2 MP1 VoA+mines+arcarnus (no other zones in the game can really come close). There, the average time between elites in ~30 seconds. Time to kill an elite is very hard to measure and every small difference can have a huge effect on the optimal monster power level. Trying to estimate it, I was getting that I would receive 6% more loot/hour if I run MP4, which is nothing.

  7. #17
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    I don't know if I agree with the logic behind this guide. If your downtime is considered constant, so running from point A to point B and vendoring takes just as long on MP10 as MP0, when you up the MP to the highest level at which you're not concerned with dying you just spend more time in combat. Ratio uptime/downtime gets bigger?


    What happens when you're just blowing things up seamlessly at MP0? Say you're a DH, you're above paragon 70, you're ignoring white mobs that die in your wake of spike traps and trail of cinders, and elite packs go down within 5 seconds to a few bolas and a rain of vengance. At MP3 maybe the elite packs take 7 seconds total. How can you argue that a lower MP is still correct?

  8. #18
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    If an elite pack at MP0 takes 5 seconds on average, unless your average elite kill includes massive overkill, it should take a lot more than 7 seconds on MP3. More like 16.3 seconds, minus any overkill savings (which is at most 1 shot, so let's call it 15 seconds minimum). If run time between elites is 30 seconds (which is pretty damn fast, VoA-like, hard to get close to this number anywhere else in the game), you are taking 28.5% longer. At paragon 76 you get about 22.6% more loot (doing some guesstimations regarding the value of the "extra item chance when you get a non-guaranteed item drop, in practice may be more or less, probably less), so you are actually farming slower at MP3. For MP3 to be worth it you need elites killed in more like 3 seconds, at least at my paragon level 76 and taking 30 seconds on average between elite packs.

    That said, when it comes to MF DHs might actually start to have an advantage over barbs at high gear levels, as they can just vault everywhere faster than a barb can sprint and only have to stop for elites, as long as you have the discipline for it and the survivability to not need the discipline for skills other than vault. Of course, cutting down time between elites lower than 30 seconds only makes it even better to stick with MP0/1.

  9. #19
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    The idea is that you find an elite pack, blow your major cooldown skill, and take the necessary few seconds to read what drops and pick it up. Not exactly a static "downtime", but a similar concept. It's a minimum amount of time spent per elite pack. Increasing the MP level enough to go from complete overkill on the pack to requiring a few seconds of clean up shots after the minimum time may not even double the amount of total time spent on the pack.

    Another factor to consider here is that white mobs become more valuable relative to elite packs at higher MP. Once you get to 5 NV at MP8-10 it feels like the elite packs are just there to slow you down between big packs of whites.

  10. #20
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: Choosing the Right Monster Power Level For Farming

    Sorry about the delayed response. I rarely check the main page and was unaware I'd been featured. (Seriously though, thanks Flux!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rollei View Post
    This math does not compute for WW barbs, since now its much harder to sustain zerk the best way to find loot is the MPL where the health of the monsters enables you to keep zerk almost all time but at the same it must be the lowest possible MPL so u can kill monsters the fastest possible.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/pt/profile/r...6/hero/1353836

    Look at my case for instance, i just cannot keep zerk on mpl 0-2, on 3 i strugle a little so i farm on MPL 4. Zerk not only increases your dps, but the best bennefit of it is that it reduces your downtime IMMENSELLY. It reduces kiting, it gives you insane speed and insane dps. So ... for barbs just keep that in mind when farming.
    What we have here is square peg in round hole syndrome. Assuming 300 MF from gear/paragon and 5-stack Valor, going from MP1 to MP2 is an effective increase of... 5% magic find (25/500). So really it's about doing the same thing but now faster because of Thrive. If one MP level keeps Thrive up, I can actually see this working; you get up to 16% more effective move speed (1.44/1.24, assuming a legendary for 24% move and saving Sprint for battles), and although Thrive probably won't quite give 40-50% DPS, it should provide enough where, combined with the Thrive move bonus, you accomplish the same run faster or just as fast. However, going up 2 or more MP levels for Thrive is just... rediculous.

    If I had some kind of brain aneurysm and decided to build a Thrive barb for MF runs (and didn't predict a 1.06 revision to the MP system), I'd try to solve the problem somewhat by leaning heavily on the "damage vs elites" mod. Stone of Jordan? You betcha. Gearing to get 50% or so damage vs elites would probably heavily weaken your damage against white mobs... but that is, in its entirety, your justification for a higher MP level. Your complaint, literally, is "but I kill them too fast!"

    Do you understand how counter-intuitive that is?

    I'm not mocking the power of the traditional Run Like the Wind playstyle when it comes to keyfarming; it's awesome for that. But all your frustration comes from sticking to the "infinite WotB" model despite a page of math that says it isn't going to work. My serious suggestion: accept that Thrive won't be up at all times.

    I'm not suggesting dropping Thrive. Actually, for a MP0/1 MF barb, some form of Sprint and WotB are pretty much mandatory for the movespeed bonuses alone, and you really only get 4 skill choices (other than rune selection). Furthermore, Thrive is a decent rune because it lasts longer than the others (even if only by a couple of seconds). I'm just saying you need to get over the fact that it will be down sometimes when farming MP0/1, and that some other runes might begin to look more attractive (Insanity?).
    Quote Originally Posted by patonis View Post
    @Dethklok

    I understand your math only partially. Could you care to explain it with an example, where you explain how the farm run length plays into this.
    That's very labor-intensive, and I've been jammed lately (obviously not when i wrote this)... but it probably would be demonstrative. When I wrote the initial post I was originally going to break down a YouTube video of an Archon wizard doing a Act3 MP4 run to show how much time was actually spent DPSing as opposed to downtiming. Maybe at some point I'll get back around to it. No promises.
    Quote Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
    That said, when it comes to MF DHs might actually start to have an advantage over barbs at high gear levels, as they can just vault everywhere faster than a barb can sprint and only have to stop for elites, as long as you have the discipline for it and the survivability to not need the discipline for skills other than vault. Of course, cutting down time between elites lower than 30 seconds only makes it even better to stick with MP0/1.
    I play a DH, and the reason I switched to it (after some casual time with other classes when the game first came out) is that I figured the DH would have to be the best ultra-late-game farmer simply because it has the best movement options; I figured with good enough gear you'd have insane DPS, and with insane DPS your choice of attack skill wouldn't matter. Having played a lot since, I can say I was wrong about that; spamming Multishot is absurdly efficient at killing things at low MP levels, while it gets noticeably worse at higher MP levels where you're bound to run into Hatred problems attempting the build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pizzarino View Post
    The idea is that you find an elite pack, blow your major cooldown skill, and take the necessary few seconds to read what drops and pick it up. Not exactly a static "downtime", but a similar concept. It's a minimum amount of time spent per elite pack. Increasing the MP level enough to go from complete overkill on the pack to requiring a few seconds of clean up shots after the minimum time may not even double the amount of total time spent on the pack.
    At MP0, you don't really need to blow defensive cooldowns for elites, except perhaps to break a CC effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pizzarino View Post
    Another factor to consider here is that white mobs become more valuable relative to elite packs at higher MP. Once you get to 5 NV at MP8-10 it feels like the elite packs are just there to slow you down between big packs of whites.
    Let's say that white mobs on MP0 drop gear (not gold or potions or gems) 10% of the time. At MP10, that goes from 10% to 110% (yes, they can double-drop), which is a 1100% relative increase... and in exchange you get a 3439% increase in monster health. After factoring in the increased magic find as well, you should end up getting about 1678% the MP0 amount of loot from whites. That's a huge increase on what, in my experience, is a hugely inefficient source for MFing on MP0; however, there's nothing like a x16 multiplier to transform inefficient into amazing. I might begin recording how many rares I get from white mobs as opposed to elites over a series of Alkaizer runs on MP0, then (assuming number of rares dropped is proportional to number of legendaries dropped) factor the increased drop chance into my calculations. Out of all the things that bothers me about my math, this is top of the list. However, I have trouble believing that whites would ever farm better than elites, even on MP10 or some such craziness; I'd just be doing it for thoroughness. Again, if/when I have time, no promises.

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