US Soldiers (Afghanistan) How good are they?

[LozHinge the Unhinged]

[...]

Since when did you become American? Surely you're not fleeing the Isle?!?

Well ... since birth. You clearly have not been paying attention in class so it's a trip to the headmaster for you laddie - he'll be twitching his cane in your direction.

[...]

The "Arab Street" perceives offing old Yankees in wheelchairs or European nuns as the mark of true heroism, and our quiescence supports their thinking. If, OTOH, we had the Russian or Chinese attitude, AKA "The Chicago Way", the filthy subhumans wouldn't dare crawl out from under their rocks and the "Street" would view them more the way we do. They feel emboldened specifically BECAUSE we wet our drawers over feeble analogies about torture, imprecise and stupid actions by prison guards, and endless apologies with desperate attempts to bribe, cajole, or appease. Instead, we ought to be employing their own massive psychological insecurities against them, not catering to the same.

You're describing the kind of backbone and resolve commonly associated with civilisations that have not descended far into decadence.

That isn't exactly the "Strong Horse". More like a panto.

At least one half of that panto horse pair is doing a job that you couldn't stomach, fella. Show some respect.

Grr. Feckin' spotted blogs. Here's a re-use with typical frothy garbage tacked on underneath.

*tries to imagine a life in which that linked pic wasn't linked*

*succeeds*

[...]

Really? I'm surprised. I never enjoyed it that much, but I'd watch my back after that statement...

Hmm. Enraged Dr Who fans, storming my home, tearing their beards and burning pictures of Capt James T Kirk ... I'll cope.

Well, Knave, what I'm saying is not that there's still a secret cabal that the COMINTERN manages, so much as that Obama's Communications Director is a Maoist, his Science Czar is a Malthusian, and Cherie Blair was one of the grubby Greenham Common slatterns. It was money quite well spent, as far as I'm concerned; the "fellow travelers" influence is wide and deep. Imagining that they don't make a difference or that their activities gained no traction seems, well, stupid. These people would NOT have become anti-Nationalist on their own; the whole point of these GRU operations were to instill an indecisive, self-doubting, HIGHLY contrary attitude to the highest levels of the enemy nations as could be achieved. Tell me that's not been spectacularly successful, even if the USSR collapsed under its own weight?

I see no strong evidence that the activities you mention, here and in other posts, which may or may not have actually occurred, for motives that may or may not have anything to do with your contention, are a result of the actions of putative Soviet sociological warfare.

Think about it. The West sends hamburgers to the Eastern Bloc to undermine it - yeah, I get that. I even approve. But the USSR sends over subtle psychological cues to induce a desire for Obamacare on a fiercely independent nation of work-for-a-living individuals? Nope. Obamacare and other social constructs are a purely internal desire on the part of middle-class America to salve its own conscience over having been successful and affluent. It's modern human nature amongst liberals/moderates. Naval gazing, indeed.

Nah. You're wrong, but I can't tell you why
That's better.

Sigh. You, Kris, and Dave, all denial and no grounds for.

Did I forget my irony tags again? :sigh:

Well, if it matters, the "original failings of the West" view was promulgated by Edward Said, and if I could go back in time and behead him I'd have to give it serious consideration.

So you are saying that the manipulations by the West in the Twentieth Century never took place. Oh man, my conscience feels so weightless now!

That view completely ignores and obscures the cold hard fact that the Muslims were directly responsible for the Dark Ages, and that the supposed Golden Age of Islam is a crock of... propaganda.

Muslims were responsible for their own "Dark Ages", I agree. As for a "Golden Age of Islam", who the hell has suggested that? There was a Golden Age that immediately preceded Islam, centred in the Middle East but Islam itself has always been a recipe, hell, an entire cookbook for closing the eyes of rational thought.

Sorry, you're not at all trustworthy. I was there. Kuwait should certainly have been held culpable for the cross-drilling, but that's why they liked having America as Daddy. Much as does Europe.

:sigh:
Once more into the breech ... Sophistry is where you come up with a reasonable/rational/justified argument for doing something you would have done anyway, regardless of any argument. Kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was reasonable, rational, justified - it was even legal FFS - but it was always going to happen. D'ya see now?

What I contend is that just because Yalta was an exercise in hubris, it hardly excuses decades worth of savagery that is largely trumped up. There was no "occupation". There was no "Palestinian People". The invading Arab armies were responsible for the bulk of what is now considered "ethnic cleansing" during the Naqbah. At what point do people recognize, "enough is enough, and we're living a lie"? Even the Irish got that, and before Ian Paisley kicked the bucket IIRC.

There was no "occupation", no. There was only a disputed land, disputed for millennia, the future of which Britain and the US decided to adjudicate. With or without the agreement of all parties. I'm of the opinion that, if you cannot fix a problem, you shouldn't get involved by making it worse. We see this happening right here and now - hello North Korea, hello China - the only thing that is different in those two cases and the only reason the West isn't busy making the problem worse with those two nations is ... uh care to guess?

Untrue - the former, not the latter. I rail against that oppression on any front, but while I characterize that oppression generally as "Progressive", I hold particular hate for those who do it in the name of "The People" or "The Working Man", AKA the Left.

Your labels for Left and Right resemble the labels on some of my light switches - Off and On. I also have lights that have dimmer switches ... maybe you could get dimmer switches for your politics

There's no difference: I am wiser because I recognize that private hands remain weaker than public hands no matter how much money's in them. Bill Gates found this out to his chagrin, while George Soros used Socialism and took the governmental path to wickedness and prosperity.

Some truth here. However, some of those private hands, they seem to be guiding those public hands somewhat.
I have already mentioned my half-belief that all top-echelon politics is merely puppet-show theatre (Punch'n'Judy) to keep the public occupied whilst the real business of rulership is carried out by the wealthy and the powerful. I won't try to defend that hypothesis here, though.

See? Kris and Dave must be proud.

Dave who? I'd love kris to be proud of me but I fall way short

More fool you, then. He's to the left of "Red" Ken; he's just far more cunning and discreet.

So cunning and discrete, he has never ever been found to act in a way that was even close to Red Ken's socialist/communist agenda. Hmmm ... how could this be?

Well, I'll grant you the immigration argument, but I hardly characterize the 'wetback' population as being the same as 'Spartacus', despite the slave status both of them hold compared to the decadent crowd. I guess I'm looking at the population and culture, where you're actually looking at time. However, I'm hungry (and putting off drink at least on weekdays since work's tough currently) so I'll have to pick this up tomorrow.

Eat hearty, for tomorrow you ... er, dine. It's the American Way

[jmervyn]

Well ... since birth. You clearly have not been paying attention in class so it's a trip to the headmaster for you laddie - he'll be twitching his cane in your direction.

Can't be. You sound too much like "Another Brick in the Wall", which is a foreign context for nearly all Americun school children.

You're describing the kind of backbone and resolve commonly associated with civilisations that have not descended far into decadence.

"far" being the quibble. A significant segment of American society, around 20%, believes we've not descended far <enough>. They're the ones I generally label as 'the Left'.

At least one half of that panto horse pair is doing a job that you couldn't stomach, fella. Show some respect.

Oy! You have no idea what I can stomach. Plus, while I haven't explicitly been called that part of the horse's anatomy, there's plenty of people who have <thought> it.

*tries to imagine a life in which that linked pic wasn't linked*

*succeeds*

I kind of liked the actual pic. Artistic. Certainly better than this one:

Spoiler

Hmm. Enraged Dr Who fans, storming my home, tearing their beards and burning pictures of Capt James T Kirk ... I'll cope.

YOUR pictures of Kirk?

I see no strong evidence that the activities you mention, here and in other posts, which may or may not have actually occurred, for motives that may or may not have anything to do with your contention, are a result of the actions of putative Soviet sociological warfare.

Not looking & averting eyes <> no evidence. If you want a sampler, you should be able to find books like this one by "Victor Suvorov", a Colonel in the GRU who defected to England back during the Cold War. For more nitty-gritty, I believe the "Venona" cables were published in book form.

But the USSR sends over subtle psychological cues to induce a desire for Obamacare on a fiercely independent nation of work-for-a-living individuals? Nope.

Obamacare and other social constructs are a purely internal desire on the part of middle-class America to salve its own conscience over having been successful and affluent. It's modern human nature amongst liberals/moderates.

Sure; again it's not either/or, as you have incorrectly framed it. It's paying people to stoke certain fires (dependency & indecision) while extinguishing or badmouthing others (jingoism & nationalism).

Naval gazing, indeed.

Not really cute enough to warrant.

So you are saying that the manipulations by the West in the Twentieth Century never took place. Oh man, my conscience feels so weightless now!

Hardly. I'm saying that it's more than a little hypocritical to make mountains out of American molehills while ignoring the majestic peaks that touch the sky everywhere else. Amnesty International is a fine example; they demand UN inspectors for American elections, but regularly turn a blind eye or mute their criticism of the worst of the worst. Plus, the UN Human Rights council, substantially on the American dime? REALLY?

Muslims were responsible for their own "Dark Ages", I agree.

To be clear (and I posted a video about this earlier, albeit one that looked like the professor filmed it in his TA's living room) - I mean that the Islamic Conquest <caused> the European Dark Ages far more than did the Sack, as is normally claimed. I forgot to mention that another one of the scoundrels responsible was Gibbon.

As for a "Golden Age of Islam", who the hell has suggested that? There was a Golden Age that immediately preceded Islam, centred in the Middle East but Islam itself has always been a recipe, hell, an entire cookbook for closing the eyes of rational thought.

You've never heard that? I'm surprised, considering how the British educational establishment is so busy re-writing history to suit. In short, the Muslim prudence in not butchering captives (particularly J00z) who had useful scientific information, such as that which could be applied for military purposes, is portrayed as beneficence and cultural enlightenment by the Caliphate. (it's damnably hard to find sites that are neither spotted blogs, discussion boards, Christian in source, or labeled "hate" by my.EDU filters).

If you had ignored the professor's somewhat clumsy presentation earlier, I'll look it up again. It's good watching.

Once more into the breech ...

That's 'breach'.

Kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was reasonable, rational, justified - it was even legal FFS - but it was always going to happen. D'ya see now?

I guess we can agree to disagree. I recall it being quite touch & go, as well as the mainstream media wringing hands about our attacking the 4th largest modern military in the world, panics about Saddam's biological & chemical capability (how convieniently quickly they forget), and sneers about the probability of my coming home in a body bag.

There was only a disputed land, disputed for millennia, the future of which Britain and the US decided to adjudicate.

Thing is, that dispute was never serious until the Arab Nations decided to make it into one. There was definitely nasty behavior by the Arabs against the **** who were in part fleeing the Russian Revolution, but that was more along the "they took our jerbs!" line and cultural envy than full-scale Jihad (remember that as far as Islamists are concerned, once a territory is part of the "House of Peace" it must remain so). The so-called Palestinians were Syrians under Turkish rule - there was no territorial dispute either, as the J00z were already there.

With or without the agreement of all parties. I'm of the opinion that, if you cannot fix a problem, you shouldn't get involved by making it worse.

I don't always agree. You forget that the "Mandate" was due to the carving up of the Ottoman Empire - it's hardly like the victors will leave a beaten enemy prepared to renew their conflict.

maybe you could get dimmer switches for your politics

John 1:5

Some truth here. However, some of those private hands, they seem to be guiding those public hands somewhat.

Some? How white of you. The reason private hands get involved is to defend their wealth, while the 'public' hands invariably wind up deep in yummy, yummy, filthy lucre. "Dirty" Harry Reid is a case in point.

So cunning and discrete, he has never ever been found to act in a way that was even close to Red Ken's socialist/communist agenda. Hmmm ... how could this be?

I guess you weren't watching when he not only nationalized the banks and one of the three major auto manufacturers, but also socialized over 20% of the American market by taking over part of the health-care, the lion's share of medical insurance, and all of the student loan insurance sectors. Must be some really good marathon on your telly?

[LozHinge the Unhinged]

New rule - no Merv Training during working hours, my spelling and typos are atrocious!

I'll get back to this when I can. I can already see areas where I will need to skim off the excess froth

[krischan]

I recommend drunk-posting! I think it's harder to stand seeing people being wrong in the internet when you are a bit tipsy and it makes you a bit more relaxed and less reluctant to make emotional posting, so... cheers!

However, I usually keep a rest of caution and avoid confrontations in that state, compensating it with writing sentimental stuff. That explains a couple of my posts in the classic music thread - including the first.

[jmervyn]

I can already see areas where I will need to skim off the excess froth

You're not supposed to do that...

I recommend drunk-posting! I think it's harder to stand seeing people being wrong in the internet when you are a bit tipsy and it makes you a bit more relaxed and less reluctant to make emotional posting, so... cheers!

Yeah, but as I mentioned earlier I'm going teetotal during the week, at least for the moment.

Perhaps that accounts for my prickly tone towards Saro calling me names?

[Stevinator]

I'm not sticking my nose in this, but I am interested, is there some special affinity for dogs in the muslim world? Even more than people have for their pets here? Because pet people are weird and crazy about their animals, I can't imagine it's worse there. i ask because in the exchange JMerv made a comment about it, and the level of sarcasm in the post was ambiguous.


Dmac's Ladyfriend (who moved in sans permission, discussion, or even really notification--i came home from a job and she was just here) refers to her cat as though it were her child. She also talks to it a lot. I don't know if she's aware it can only understand her tone of voice, and even then, it's only reactions seem to be that it understands the tone for "you've done something wrong"--then it runs away. Otherwise, i think her nuanced intentions are lost on it.

Also, in the neighborhood where my parent's live, is a a neighbor lady that walks her tiny little dog everyday, and every day it wears a different apparently homemade "outfit". I'm not sure how many it has, but I'm up there once a month or so, and see her frequently, and I don't recall any repeats. Animals with larger wardrobes than me are weird.

I'm sure we've all seen worse on TV, but things are so much more real, and more worrisome when you witness them in real life.

[jmervyn]

i ask because in the exchange JMerv made a comment about it, and the level of sarcasm in the post was ambiguous.

I was concerned that I might be falling down on the job re: sarcasm, but I now realize it was like you were Prometheus secretively peering into the discussions on Mt. Olympus.

Here's a good link. Here's another. Plus, it's on YouTube (of dubious quality and commentary)! Looks like the commentary starts around 2:33




The reality, of course, is both even more ambiguous and not a little disgusting. I suspect it's only those adhering to the Wahabist doctrine that really have it out for canines; there were certainly more than a few of them in Iraq. According to what I've seen, there's zip in the Qu'ran but plenty in the Hadith.

[LozHinge the Unhinged]

Can't be. You sound too much like "Another Brick in the Wall", which is a foreign context for nearly all Americun school children.

Oddly enough, The Wall first came to my notice when I was living in Florida.

"far" being the quibble. A significant segment of American society, around 20%, believes we've not descended far <enough>. They're the ones I generally label as 'the Left'.

You do? No kidding!
/kidding

Oy! You have no idea what I can stomach. Plus, while I haven't explicitly been called that part of the horse's anatomy, there's plenty of people who have <thought> it.

You're a horse's arse, Merv.
There, the elephant has been shoved out of the room at long last!
Don't thank me, it was my pleasure

I kind of liked the actual pic. Artistic. Certainly better than this one:

Spoiler

That made me throw up in my mouth, just a little bit

YOUR pictures of Kirk?

WTF? I never said they were mine, I'll give them back to you.
Sheesh. Calm it, mate.

Not looking & averting eyes <> no evidence. If you want a sampler, you should be able to find books like this one by "Victor Suvorov", a Colonel in the GRU who defected to England back during the Cold War. For more nitty-gritty, I believe the "Venona" cables were published in book form.

Picky Mervman is picky.
OK, I see no logical interpretation of the existing evidence that leads to your POV. Better?
Picky picky picky.

Sure; again it's not either/or, as you have incorrectly framed it. It's paying people to stoke certain fires (dependency & indecision) while extinguishing or badmouthing others (jingoism & nationalism).

There is no either/or in politics, only what we got away with and what we didn't get away with. Still, what you attribute incorrectly, or at least unjustifiably, to outside influence is far more likely to be down to a change in the social conscience of the nation. Civilisation finding more things to fret over, if you will.

Not really cute enough to warrant.

Warrant Officer? That's a navel grade, right?
B'dum*tsh*

Hardly. I'm saying that it's more than a little hypocritical to make mountains out of American molehills while ignoring the majestic peaks that touch the sky everywhere else. Amnesty International is a fine example; they demand UN inspectors for American elections, but regularly turn a blind eye or mute their criticism of the worst of the worst. Plus, the UN Human Rights council, substantially on the American dime? REALLY?

Amnesty doesn't turn a blind eye. They just get ignored by the bad guys. They yell about the US because they have this feeling (crazy, yeah?) that America will listen and they might as well be doing some good, somewhere. Or something.

To be clear (and I posted a video about this earlier, albeit one that looked like the professor filmed it in his TA's living room) - I mean that the Islamic Conquest <caused> the European Dark Ages far more than did the Sack, as is normally claimed. I forgot to mention that another one of the scoundrels responsible was Gibbon.

Remind me, it's slipped my mind. Where was the bright centre of European culture and scientific advancement prior to the Dark Ages? I don't quite recall. And when I say "Bright", I mean comparable to those studies and discoveries carried out in pre-Islam Persia, etc - that sort of bright.

You've never heard that? I'm surprised, considering how the British educational establishment is so busy re-writing history to suit. In short, the Muslim prudence in not butchering captives (particularly J00z) who had useful scientific information, such as that which could be applied for military purposes, is portrayed as beneficence and cultural enlightenment by the Caliphate. (it's damnably hard to find sites that are neither spotted blogs, discussion boards, Christian in source, or labeled "hate" by my.EDU filters).

If you had ignored the professor's somewhat clumsy presentation earlier, I'll look it up again. It's good watching.

Yikes, cross purposes again. I need to spell things out for you better.

There was a Golden Age in the Middle East that ended when Islam took hold. Mathematicians, physicists, chemists all doing really bright things. Then Mohammad's followers started to dismantle all that stuff, learning, discovery and set up the Dark Empire. There was no Golden Age of Islam, that's an oxymoron. Islam ended the Golden Age.

That's 'breach'.

I was actually referring to my trousers.
Lame, Loz, lame.

I guess we can agree to disagree.

What, you're going to allow that? You're mellowing, Merv.

I recall it being quite touch & go, as well as the mainstream media wringing hands about our attacking the 4th largest modern military in the world, panics about Saddam's biological & chemical capability (how convieniently quickly they forget), and sneers about the probability of my coming home in a body bag.

I cannot speak for how it was for you, with your involvement being what it was, but it was a solid 100% certainty in my mind at the time.

Thing is, that dispute was never serious until the Arab Nations decided to make it into one. There was definitely nasty behavior by the Arabs against the **** who were in part fleeing the Russian Revolution, but that was more along the "they took our jerbs!" line and cultural envy than full-scale Jihad (remember that as far as Islamists are concerned, once a territory is part of the "House of Peace" it must remain so). The so-called Palestinians were Syrians under Turkish rule - there was no territorial dispute either, as the J00z were already there.

I'm lost. Are you saying that there was never any serious dispute over this patch of real estate prior to the West grabbing it and handing it over to ****? Really?
Even if that's true, things changed after 1948, after the Brits et al had done their work.

I don't always agree. You forget that the "Mandate" was due to the carving up of the Ottoman Empire - it's hardly like the victors will leave a beaten enemy prepared to renew their conflict.

Huh? Anyway, it's too late to second guess it all now. All you can do is work with the aftermath.

John 1:5

Bah. Give me three to one and then we're talking.

Some? How white of you.

There's evidence that there's some celt in me, too. How white is that?

The reason private hands get involved is to defend their wealth, while the 'public' hands invariably wind up deep in yummy, yummy, filthy lucre. "Dirty" Harry Reid is a case in point.

Private hands are "defending their wealth" and public hands are "in the filthy lucre". Funny how the exact same stuff looks entirely different depending upon your ... oh ... prejudice.

I guess you weren't watching when he not only nationalized the banks and one of the three major auto manufacturers, but also socialized over 20% of the American market by taking over part of the health-care, the lion's share of medical insurance, and all of the student loan insurance sectors. Must be some really good marathon on your telly?

I watch about 50 hours of TV a year, these days. Anyway, Obama nationalised the banks to stop the end of the world, he nationalised three auto manufacturers to prevent a localised Depression not seen since the 1930's.
He had inherited a country and a national economic structure from successive GOP/Democratic governments which meant he could have been Left, Right or from Alpha Centauri - he still had to step in.

As for nationalising healthcare, you can argue how he went about it all you like, I don't care. The fact is, most civilised nations have some form of social healthcare that is provided free or low-cost. That isn't Leftist, that is a feature of a proper, modern civilisation.

As for student loans - bah, to Hell with the lazy gits, they can hardly be bothered to get out of bed after a skinful the night before. Let 'em eat carpet and toenail clippings

[SaroDarksbane]

Relevant to my previous post: "New Medal for Drone Pilots Outranks Bronze Star"

Apparently someone else had the same thought as me:

"With total disregard of personal safety, fearlessly placed his coffee cup right next to the keyboard, risking a spill that could render it inoperable. With just one hand on the controls and the other balancing a cherry danish, showed extreme digital dexterity, the hand with the danish also being used to press keys on the keyboard while the other hand guided the drone with the joystick. When his cellphone rang displayed incredible multi-tasking skills and then checked his email and Twitter account.

"While maneuvering the drone, experienced a sharp pain in his left hand running from his fingertips all the way up his forearm but refused medical treatment and continued the mission with no thought for his own welfare until his next break, enduring almost 15 minutes of cramps and almost certain eventual development of carpal tunnel syndrome, which is covered only in part by his medical insurance. The pain continued until that evening when he went home and was not completely gone by the next day, but bravely returned to his duty the next morning in spite of heavy traffic and congestion which added at least 30 minutes to his already difficult commute. For this dedication to duty and exemplary performance under really really tough circumstances is hereby awarded the Silver Drone with Starbucks cluster, and will also receive a discount on his next purchase."

[jmervyn]

Don't thank me, it was my pleasure

Of that I've no doubt. Thing is, when I did that to old Smeggums, I got a temp ban...

Picky Mervman is picky.
OK, I see no logical interpretation of the existing evidence that leads to your POV. Better?
Picky picky picky.

What's illogical about it? I'm not saying that the USSR came up with -

Phase 1) Illicit funding & infiltration of Left-leaning institutions.
Phase 2) ???
Phase 3) True Communism!

What I'm talking about was the incontrovertible fact that "Phase 1" occurred, on a significant level. I used to harangue my wife because she claimed the IRA somehow had legitimacy, when in reality the USSR had been the author and backer for most of the world's terrorist movements for decades. It's always fun to ignore the fact that Nelson Mandela had the same Soviet backing that his fellow Nobel recipient Yasser Arafat did...

Still, what you attribute incorrectly, or at least unjustifiably, to outside influence is far more likely to be down to a change in the social conscience of the nation. Civilisation finding more things to fret over, if you will.

Still wrong, aren't you. Society shapes gov't, so if you can instill controversy and self-doubt in a democratic system, it can cause it to be far weaker and ready for conquest from a totalitarian or at least unified one.

Amnesty doesn't turn a blind eye. They just get ignored by the bad guys. They yell about the US because they have this feeling (crazy, yeah?) that America will listen and they might as well be doing some good, somewhere. Or something.

Sorry, proven false, and years ago at that. I had trouble finding a single link among all the examples. However, they <do> provide a perfect example of how that USSR funding bore fruit; quite a lot of bang for very little, er, Ruble.

And when I say "Bright", I mean comparable to those studies and discoveries carried out in pre-Islam Persia, etc - that sort of bright.

Your attempts to toy with me aside, the history is all but undeniable. The Germanic "Barbarians" desired incorporation and assimilation, while the Islamists desired extermination.

There was a Golden Age in the Middle East that ended when Islam took hold. Mathematicians, physicists, chemists all doing really bright things. Then Mohammad's followers started to dismantle all that stuff, learning, discovery and set up the Dark Empire. There was no Golden Age of Islam, that's an oxymoron. Islam ended the Golden Age.

Agreed about the cross purposes, and that there was no "Golden Age", but I'm not sure we're on terms about the rest. The Byzantine culture is stupidly forgotten about, perhaps because it also is an unpleasant reminder of the hostility of Islam.

What, you're going to allow that? You're mellowing, Merv.

Hardly; just haven't enough time.

I cannot speak for how it was for you, with your involvement being what it was, but it was a solid 100% certainty in my mind at the time.

Definitely not the case. In point of fact, it was only with about a week to go that suddenly there was a strange awareness that we were going to do something that previously would have been considered on the level of supernatural. I suspect it was because of the Battle of Khafji - which modern media hindsight claims generally claims a strategic miscalculation by Iraq. In reality, it was intended to be a major Iraqi offensive resulting in strategic positioning, but since the Iraqi army was solidly based on the USSR's doctrine, it exposed just how worthless those post-WW2 tactical considerations could be on the modern battlefield. When you get your arse kicked by retreating Marine LAV's and the Saudi National Guard, it kind of reduces the "battle hardened veterans" storyline.

It doesn't matter how battle-hardened you are when you haven't eaten in close to a week and have no idea what's happening...

I'm lost. Are you saying that there was never any serious dispute over this patch of real estate prior to the West grabbing it and handing it over to ****? Really?

Re-read. I'm saying that the "J00z are the root of all Ebil" song & dance was at best a sideshow prior to the "Naqbah". Once a rag-tag Israeli army defeated the best that the Arab world had to offer, though...

There's evidence that there's some celt in me, too. How white is that?

If THAT's the case, then you best do me homage, and fast. I <am> the "marrow-eminent" one, after all (though perhaps it's easier for you to just use "High Lord")...

Private hands are "defending their wealth" and public hands are "in the filthy lucre". Funny how the exact same stuff looks entirely different depending upon your ... oh ... prejudice.

So having your hands on other's rightful stuff is prejudice? Do tell.

he still had to step in.

Why? There's a large segment, myself included, that don't believe he's done any good with the multiple interventions, and that Paulson snookered Bush in the first place.

That isn't Leftist, that is a feature of a proper, modern civilisation.

Oh, well, I'm glad that we will soon number in such august ranks as those you inhabit. Tell me, which d'y'think is kinder and gentler - your "Care Pathways" or our "Lives System"? Rather Orwellian when labeled as "Death Panels", to be sure...