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  1. #31
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Maybe we can discuss on what would be the most optimal gear for this build.

    It seems like nat armor with strafe crit would be the armor of choice. Plus soj ring with crit plus maybe skullring with crit strafe?

    Most importantly what would be the most ideal weapon (rare weapon). Hand crossbow? Stats?

    We need more posts here in order to define this gosuness. Ive been getting compliments for the cool style of play. I only do 54k though, so if i could crank that up i would just be lolling

  2. #32
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    I got curious and tried this build. Anything to get a fun and efficient DH. So far it's been both, although not as fun as the Grenade build imo.

    I'd tried Strafe before and it didn't deliver, but I was dirt poor back then; you really need some gear for this build to succeed. I do 85k dps and it seems very good so far. I'd say that with 100k+ this might actually rival the WW build in effectiveness, maybe even surpass it if you could cram Vault + Tactical Advantage in there somehow. Atm I don't see how that's possible though. Right now I use Archery + Vengeance + Nightstalker. With Hatred Regen on quiver + Templar + Bat the Hatred drain is not actually that bad... Maybe Nightstalker could be phased out with really good gear? Wouldn't need to stack crit like mad then either. On the higher mps the H-drain is high enough that you do need Punishment. But I've found in my (very limited) testing that the build is not ideal for high mps (5 and up) anyway. I've got 550 all res, 1000 LoH, 4k armor and 40k life and elites kill me constantly on mp 5, unlike with the Grenade build that I used earlier. Maybe Guardian Tower would help, but it's hard to cram more skills into the build. You need Gloom in order not to die, Bat for H-regen, Shuriken Cloud for LoH proc, Punishment for Hatred bulb fills. You can't put the Tower on left-click, and to use Strafe on left-click is a nightmare since you need to either hold shift or click on monsters. Maybe Tower could replace Shuriken Cloud; I'll have to test it.

    I find that a Hand Crossbow is not mandatory if you've got enough Crit. I've got 34% normal crit and 14% added for Strafe, and I have a bid on an SoJ with 6% added Strafe crit to top it off, and it's plenty. This allows you to use a 2-socket Manticore, which gives you a big boost in dps.

    Edit: Humm my slower attack speed with the Manti might be the cause of my deaths on Mp 5; I didn't remember that it affects the rate at which you proc LoH. Kinda wish I hadn't spent 8 million on that Intelligance Manti. Oh well, I'll have to test it, but a 10k dip in dps is gonna hurt... The trick is to get enough dps in order to kill all trash mobs in one pass on Mp 0. Right now I'm not quite there yet; spideys die well enough but other mobs take a bit of circling about, leading to non-optimal runs. I do think the sweet spot might be somewhere around 100k. I went overkill on res all; maybe if I cut it down to 300, I could reach 100k without spending too much more (I spent about 70 mill on my char, although I might've overpaid on some pieces, especially the Manti).
    Last edited by Greizer; 24-11-2012 at 09:36.

  3. #33
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    I really want this build to work, but I'm afraid it just isn't best at anything. I'm not saying it's not viable, but you've got other ways to do the same things better.

    OK so here's some theorycrafting: With a proc of 12.5% and a constant attack rate of 2 ticks/sec, Shuriken Cloud adds a whopping 0.25 discipline/second (at 100% crit, which won't happen), which brings us up to 1.25 discipline/sec. Convert that all to hatred via Punishment (with Vengeance and Perfectionist) and you get 8.33 hatred/sec, which combined with perfect hatred regen gear and Templar is 19 hatred/sec. Each Strafe has a 50% proc, which is 0.5 discipline at 100% crit (slightly more likely thanks to Strafe skill bonus*), which brings Strafe's effective cost to 8.66 hatred per attack (vs one target), which means our max APS is 2.19 -- we simply can't break that ceiling, no matter how hard we try. Being more reasonable and leaving discipline for constant in-combat Gloom brings us down to 1.76 max aps. This is pretty much impossible with a hand crossbow (with the exception of 10% attack speed Dead Man's, which would be a weird choice to say the least, and having absolutely no attack speed on the rest of the gear would be very... limiting. Windforce isn't much better, with a max gear 13% attack speed.)

    Therefore, the best thing to do is forget about on-weapon hatred regen, go with a 2h crossbow, and try to keep aps under 1.68 (your new APS ceiling while keeping constant Gloom AND 100% crit chance). Sorry folks, but once again dual-wielding fails and good-old 2h is the way to go.

    However, at that lower APS cap, the total Discipline generation from Chakram and Strafe together is 1.09 discipline per second (per target), against assuming 100% crit. Invigoration over Punishment, with good max discipline gear, is nearly or more than 2.00 discipline per second by itself. It's really hard to justify the Punishment engine; it's probably not justifiable at all.

    Once you setting on a 2h crossbow and lose Punishment, this build is pretty much a Strafe variant of my Multishot build. If you like Strafing things, you should probably check out that thread for tips on Hatred management.

    * 5 base + 54 normal affixes w/ quiver + 2 inna's pants & belt + 7 two-piece new Nat's (cloak + either ring or helm) + 5.5 two-piece old Nat's (boots + ring or helm, lose 1.5 crit chance as a result) + 6 skull grasp skill bonus + 7 mara's skill bonus + 8 cloak skill bonus + 3 scoundrel = 97.5%.
    Last edited by Dethklok; 24-11-2012 at 22:21.

  4. #34
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    OK so here's some theorycrafting:
    There are a few flaws here:
    First: As Nightstalker Proc is random calculating average discipline regeneration is quite problematic.
    Second: You forget Demolitions AoE.

    Another observation I made is that Demolition seems to hit much more often with higher attack speed. The lower the attack speed you will notice more grenades missing.

    I have been running around with 1-hand/quiver (even 16% deadmans, 88% strafe critchance though) but switched to Manticore for the damage (if you are not dualwielding there is no chance to get nowhere close to Manticores damage). But if you want to use a 1 hand bow you can do it without the need of a hatred generator.

    You will want to have a large discipline pool. The more the better. Reason for this is the random nature of Nightstalker and Demolitions AoE effect. If you are doing Alkaizer runs you will face lots of large group that will net you a really large amount of discipline (at 1.84 aps I usually would need about 3 enemies to never run out of hatred). With a high discipline pool you can fill it up at groups and usually will have enough discipline when fighting smaller groups (or champions).

    This basically became the biggest problem after switching from Danettas Spite to Calamity. APS went from 1.84 to 2.04 but the biggest problem was the discipline loss (from 50 down to 40). Calamity does put a strain on ressource management but I would say that I still could guarantee at least 90% strafe uptime. Against Ubers or on higher MP levels you could take Mortal Enemy though. The extra hatred will be enough to keep strafe up permanently against single targets.

    This video is with Danettas at 1.84 APS and 88% cc:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUT8-sUGNhY&feature=plcp

    I have to admit though, that 2 hand xbow probably is the most efficient build setup. Then again one advantage of strafe is that it is a skill that does not need high attack speed for fluid gameplay. Slower xbow benefit from these mechanics anyway (1 hand xbows in this case would be more something for people who are going for max critchance. In theory you actually can get 100% strafe cc )

  5. #35
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    I didn't mean that the build isn't viable. I meant that it isn't going to be best at anything.

    Very early in that MP2 run you run out of hatred... and that's with monsters at 225% health. At 5 times that health? 10 times that health? Forget it. So it's not going to be best for key-farming and definitely not for organ-farming. Theorycrafting proves it can never "go infinite" a la Barbarian's Run Like the Wind. (It didn't even get halfway there at one target, going to two targets isn't going to fix it, and anything 3+ isn't sustaintable.)

    And when it comes to item-farming and xp-farming, well, check out the front page. (Thanks Flux.)

    Thus Strafe falls into that Tier 2 niche of "things you can do if you're bored to spice things up, but not actually the most efficient route to anything in particular." Does not appeal to my Spike sensibilities.

  6. #36
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    I didn't mean that the build isn't viable. I meant that it isn't going to be best at anything.
    Well, I'd say it's best at efficient farming with comfort. You basically just have to press your Strafe button and from time to time Preparation or SP. No aiming, no kiting. No looking out for cooldowns. Just a bit of resource management (and if you want to simplify that, just take Vengeance and Nightstalker as passives).
    Very early in that MP2 run you run out of hatred... and that's with monsters at 225% health. At 5 times that health? 10 times that health? Forget it. So it's not going to be best for key-farming and definitely not for organ-farming. Theorycrafting proves it can never "go infinite" a la Barbarian's Run Like the Wind.
    Actually it is easier to maintain your hatred on higher monster powers as most of the time each grenade will hit more than one monster. On higher MP levels (especially for key farming or Ubers) I would suggest Mortal Enemy as well to get rid of single monsters (thanks to the high hp you do not have the problem of eventually having to recast it every second). The biggest problem on higher MP levels is that you need an insane amount of defense. You can't cast SP over and over again and you basically will be in melee all the time so you probably would be going for 1 million+ effective HP if you want to farm higher MP.

  7. #37
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Quote Originally Posted by Poekel View Post
    Actually it is easier to maintain your hatred on higher monster powers as most of the time each grenade will hit more than one monster.
    Barbarians get most of their fury "regeneration" from Run Like the Wind, which creates a small immobile 3-second DOT effect that scales with attack speed. If a monster dies during the first second, they lose two seconds of regeneration. They get to make this claim.

    Strafe, on the other hand, is a long-range, hit-scanning, heat-seaking channel. Your claim is false.

  8. #38
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    I didn't mean that the build isn't viable. I meant that it isn't going to be best at anything.

    Very early in that MP2 run you run out of hatred... and that's with monsters at 225% health. At 5 times that health? 10 times that health? Forget it. So it's not going to be best for key-farming and definitely not for organ-farming. Theorycrafting proves it can never "go infinite" a la Barbarian's Run Like the Wind. (It didn't even get halfway there at one target, going to two targets isn't going to fix it, and anything 3+ isn't sustaintable.)

    And when it comes to item-farming and xp-farming, well, check out the front page. (Thanks Flux.)

    Thus Strafe falls into that Tier 2 niche of "things you can do if you're bored to spice things up, but not actually the most efficient route to anything in particular." Does not appeal to my Spike sensibilities.
    My build, I do not ever run into hatred regeneration problems. ever. Maybe only when I misclick somwhere during the battle.. but still I get to whirl continuously threw the map just being a baws.

    I definitely would not classify the build as the niche 2 build you are talking about. Its incredibly fun but also its functional as well. You can attack while you move, and thus keep moving forward while killing stuff. It doest beat the lightning bolt version that would have to stop moving for every skeleton and kill it with the awefull ias of the manticore.

    Please dont call it a tier 2 niche untill you have actually tried it out.

  9. #39
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Question: i got 64 million to spend. I assume manticore would be the choice (high dmg low ias). I purchased a 'try version'of manticore for 1.5m or so, 940 dmg.

    What should I be looking at: 1100 dmg or 950 dmg with 1xx dext?

    Those star emeralds are like 24m each, meaning id have to invest 48m into them. leaving 16 for the bow.

  10. #40
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    Re: 1.0.5, the "Whirlwind" DH at long last!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    Barbarians get most of their fury "regeneration" from Run Like the Wind, which creates a small immobile 3-second DOT effect that scales with attack speed. If a monster dies during the first second, they lose two seconds of regeneration. They get to make this claim.
    Barbarians have a lot of less problems generating enough for fury for whirlwind as they have a lot of options for fury generation and Whirlwind is cheaper to cast. But when it comes to 100% berserker uptime there is an important prerequisite: They have to go to monster packed dungeons or they will not generate enough fury for 100% uptime.

    Against single enemies (oh and Barbs usually tend to skip those persky run away monsters in act 3) it will be very hard (if not impossible) for a Barb to maintain Berserker. So why are you not taking into account that Demolition will hit multiple enemies on a standard Alkaizer route (the route taken by barbs because of the high monster count?). Like I said, you would want to have high discipline as you will gain more discipline as you need when fighting larger packs but lose discipline when fighting run away ranged monsters.

    So lets assume 75% cc. Average chance to proc Nightstalker on hit will be:
    0.75 * 0.5 = 0,375

    With 2 APS (4 attacks per second with demolition) you would get around 1.5 discipline per second (again on average, high discipline is helpful to counter the random nature).

    Now for some (conservative) assumptions:
    40% of the time 1 enemy is hit.
    30% 2 enemies.
    20% 3 enemies.
    10% 4 enemies.

    Now average discipline per second from Nightstalker should be:
    0.4 * 1.5 + 0.3 * 3 + 0.2 * 4.5 + 0.1 * 6 = 3

    At 2 APS strafe would cost 24 hatred per second, with Dead Mans Legacy and Bat you would gain 8 hatred per second, total cost woult be 16 hatred per second.

    You could strafe for 7.8 seconds until hatred runs out.

    7.8 * (3 + 1) = 31 discipline

    Regarding to your terminology, I would have "proven" that infinite strafe is quite possible.

    The assumptions I made are not really practical ingame though. You will encounter packs against which you will gain much more discipline as you need and you might fight smaller packs against which you will lose much more discipline. This is the reason why you would want to have a high as possible discipline pool. This way you would refill your pool against all those tight packs while having enough discipline against smaller packs.

    Like I already said, if you are going for efficiency a 2 hand built will probably beat a 1 hand built every time, but 1 hand is possible of course and with really good equip eventually more fun (if you can manage your hatred a higher attack speed is more fun with this build as well).

    Strafe, on the other hand, is a long-range, hit-scanning, heat-seaking channel. Your claim is false.
    We are talking about Demolition here. Demolition is close to mid range with the added bonus of being able to hit long range. But long range hit chances are quite low (lots of grenades will miss) so you are advised to go into close combat.

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