Off-Topic in the OTF

[Vivi]

You can combine it with something from Dr Oetker.

[Stevinator]

Since I don't have a "crummy" mother, and she is one of the most worthy role models I can think of off-hand, your point remains completely asinine (which is no surprise, given the source).

Did you learn nothing from your parents that made you think, 'I will do better as an adult'?

At this stage (two separate people casting aspersions upon my Mother), particularly on the GW OTF, the Mods normally would be rushing in to beat **ME** like Gallagher on a watermelon. Dredd's staying cool.

Whoa bud, you're the one that said your mom was a bad person for not believing in god. I don't know jack about your mom, I'm just going off what you said. It doesn't matter who the person in your life is, you can't judge all of the various flavors of atheism/skepticism/agnosticism/etc off one person. Even two people that might agree on the particulars aren't going to have the same ideas on much else. That's why it's not a religion, we don't necessarily think the same about everything else, or anything else.

As for my parents, I really can't complain. It's unlikely I'll ever live up to their example.

Because you missed the point (detail below), which is sad given that your assertion about Christians is remarkably legitimate - and unexpected coming from you.

I've been through the education/indoctrination of two very different christian faiths, and have attended a variety of different denomination's services. I told you merv I was on a lengthy search in my youth. I understand exactly what the difference is.

You sustain a fundamental misunderstanding of both creeds. There is no higher authority to which an Atheist must be held accountable, and therefore no "absolutes". This is true regardless of consideration of actual supernatural reality; if Deity does not exist, the religious still believes that there is something keeping score, while the Atheist has no consideration of any judgement if he/she decides to "sin". Murder? Well, there was a good enough reason, rather than "thou shalt not".

Sure, the christian thinks god is watching. But how is that different from my desire to be good because it's the right thing to do? We may not always agree on what is right and wrong, but certainly both people have their own idea, and they feel guilt when they break their own principles. The believer sees that as god telling them something, the non believer attributes it to cognitive dissonance between their self perception and the evidence at hand, but it's the same thing. I think the problem with god is their are so many versions, you can't know what right and wrong really is, because the versions don't always agree. With the non-believer, at least you're accountable to something, even if you can self justify whatever you want--it's not like believers don't throw out whatever bits of the bible they don't like and cling to the ones they do anyway.

Neither of the two groups of thinking is going to eliminate evil. You say atheists are going to be more evil. I say it won't make any difference at all.

As for murder, I think murder is wrong because I'm taking something from that person whom I murdered. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be murdered, I think pretty much all codes of ethics say murder is wrong--god or no god. That rule--the golden rule, pops up all over the place, as is not exclusive to Christianity (nor did it originate in it). Right and wrong are determined by culture and upbringing, and when you say you can't have joint goals or morals without a god, I scratch my head, because the only way you could have joint morals is if there was only one interpretation of god (or one godless philosophy). That's unlikely in a free society.

The same is not true for the religious, though the interpretation of what is accountable varies by the religion; as an example, killing aggressive pagans, heretics, and Atheists is legitimate for Islamism.

all the more reason to say a belief in god is not correlated to morality.

False argument.

No it's not. Where could you go to set up some society where no one has ever had the idea of god (or gods). It's an experiment that can never happen. And I don't think we want to try, because we'd have to kill a bunch of people to even set it up. Sometimes hypotheses are not testable.

False argument again. It's been tried, repeatedly, with horrific result.

Um no it hasn't. The soviet union didn't go somewhere where there was no churches, they tried to kill anyone that went to church. a very different dynamic. And again, not one i endorse. (I have to say these things because you keep telling me I do endorse them)


That's also false, IIRC, but I don't blame you for falling for it - you're probably using this information, which is anecdotal and considers the number of "every damned Sunday" (see page 2 of the article). Church attendance in **MAINSTREAM TRADITIONAL LIBERAL** churches has definitely dropped to those levels and lower; non-denominational and evangelical variants' attendance have skyrocketed.[/QUOTE]

okay, so even at self reporting numbers, it's only 40%. Any half of those are occasional. People may have changed churches, but most people don't go to church. I forget why that mattered.

[jmervyn]

Whoa bud, you're the one that said your mom was a bad person for not believing in god. I don't know jack about your mom, I'm just going off what you said.

Where did I say that?

Chapter & verse, please, with links, or you're proven a massive pedo-bear arsehole who sucks donkey dongs when you're not engaged in doing unspeakable sex acts with gophers and newts.

Spoiler

Or you could just apologize, abjectly, but you've never been man enough before to do that.

It doesn't matter who the person in your life is, you can't judge all of the various flavors of atheism/skepticism/agnosticism/etc off one person.

How & why would I ever be so incredibly stupid as to do so? Though I strongly suspect your view of the Religious has more to do with your mentor Jon Stewart than any reality.

I'm stating that the principle of Atheism, as I prescribed it (a belief in NO god) falls under the definitive category that "Vox Day" states: "because I'm an *******". You like to dodge that definition, but you're not very good at it; you have a distinct antagonism for anyone professing or even considering faith.

I've been through the education/indoctrination of two very different christian faiths, and have attended a variety of different denomination's services. I told you merv I was on a lengthy search in my youth. I understand exactly what the difference is.

Yet you apparently regard your comprehension as comprehensive. That's pretty feckin' arrogant in my book, and you believe I wrote the book on arrogance. As far as I recall, you never read anything by C.S. Lewis or anyone else on the subject; you didn't even know The Screwtape Letters when I recommended them. For someone to reject a faith based on personal experience rather than actual understanding is... shallow, to say the least.

The believer sees that as god telling them something, the non believer attributes it to cognitive dissonance between their self perception and the evidence at hand, but it's the same thing.

So you work like a dog, every day, because the bank's floor manager ISN'T watching? You smell, you're so full of it. You never had instruction on MacGregor's theory X and Y, so here's a pocket summary: people have both good and evil elements, follow both elements, and relying too much on a single element is stupid.

I think the problem with god is their are so many versions, you can't know what right and wrong really is, because the versions don't always agree.

Sure you don't. That's self-serving, of course.

With the non-believer, at least you're accountable to something, even if you can self justify whatever you want--it's not like believers don't throw out whatever bits of the bible they don't like and cling to the ones they do anyway.

Do you take that shovel to bed with you when you sleep? Christians can't throw out parts they dislike, where Atheists have no requirement to keep any standards - theirs is truly "do as thou wilt", and feck the "harm none" bit if you can get away with it.

Dinner's ready. It's more important, because you're not interested in hearing.

Any half of those are occasional. People may have changed churches, but most people don't go to church. I forget why that mattered.

Because now that it's not a social stigma, people still attend in incredibly high numbers.